Originally posted by monoloco
On the SDG&E rate increases---------my comments that they were "outrageous" was again REALITY in peoples minds, not a comment on "who" should pay
for it--------we ALL will end up paying for it, as has been stated, and in this case I think appropriate. We as a Nation embarked on Nuclear Energy
because the powers making decisions believed it was beneficial to man---------that is NOT a crime, even if they are possibly wrong. Bad stuff
happens. So far, nuclear works just fine in Navy ships, and has for many years. To me the jury is still out.
Barry
I thought you were a free market guy Barry? This is just more privatize the profit, socialize the
risk type thinking. Many states and cities made the choice to not use nuclear power, why should those taxpayers be saddled with paying for SDG&E's
mistakes? If you don't want to be saddled with rate increases, use less power, or put a grid tied solar system on your roof to offset your power bill.
I AM a free-market guy, Mono, but in some cases it just is not practical because of the size of the project and the problems.
-----but, you make a very good point here, and I mostly agree with you.
Originally posted by rts551
Barry, if you want to talk about Detroit then take it to off-topic.
I think it is relevant, RTS. If my comments make you uncomfortable then I have accomplished something, perhaps.
I did not bring the subject up----------but I do sometimes comment when somebody else makes statements that I think are off-base, or just plain wrong.
Barry
Yes, the discussion of Detroit and the dropping of the A-bombs should be in off-topic as the failure of Detroit is very controversial as to what
happened and what the current state government is doing to Detroit. And the dropping of the A-bombs is also controversial as it was not a necessary
act to end the war, especially the dropping of the second one. So, they are off-topic subjects that have nothing to do with Baja.
Barry, the photo DK posted is NOT reality. It is a tasteless distortion of reality. Right-wing revisionist crap and if it belongs anywhere, it
belongs in off-topic. The idea that DK did not see it as tasteless, well, enough said. And I am surprised that you don't see how crude and tasteless
it is!
Well, as you know, Diane, we Republican's don't see things the way you appear to, and we don't think our opinions are "crap".
By the way, I don't think that your opinions are "crap" either, just mis-lead and emotional, but mostly well-intentioned.
As for the A-bombs, they may be "controversial" to some but not to me. I AM prejudiced, tho, as it was my Uncle that dropped the bomb on Nagasaki as
the "weaponeer" aboard. Without the 2 bombs millions more would have died----of that I have NO doubt!
----and Woody, thanks for the correction, but it is still a horrendous increase in rates-------not good, and hurts many, on that we agree.
Barry
On Edit------perhaps my statement of "-----millions more would have died----" is somewhat exagerated, but surely 100's of thousands on both sides
would have died had the 2 bombs not been dropped-------the Japanese were determined to defend to the death the Homeland, even after the Hiroshima
drop, and that was well known and documented at the time.
Wow, some of you like to really take it to the limits here. So, here is my reply since you are so bothered by a photo:
1) The thread was about radiation coming from Japan and the possible bad results.
2) Two cities in Japan were blown off the face of the earth by two atomic bombs and tens of thousands or more were killed by the radiation that
followed the blasts.
3) The radiation obviously is a temporary issue since (as the photo showed) the cities have been rebuilt and are thriving examples of what free
enterprise and hard work can do for prosperity... on Ground Zero of an atom bomb blast! So, instead of panic, there is hope. Just like when it was
shown that the statistics on climate change were altered to create a desired panic.
4) In a once thriving city in America, where no bombing (nuclear or conventional) has been done to it, liberal policies alone have destroyed any
prosperity and ruined the city...
The rage a few of you have is that the photos make it so clear that you will now resort to mud flinging and cries of outrage to mask the obvious. Face
it, Freedom of the people from big government and allowing private business to supply the market makes jobs, makes wealth, makes sense!
Now, have a nice day... and smile, the world is not going to end from this or anything else man has done... it is FAR more powerful than us!
Perhaps one could use Germany as a reference point .... appears the "people" will pay for NOT having nuclear power .... and the potential "risks"
which are associated using this method of energy production
Interesting, we pay for it whether we use it or not .... how much ya think storage will be on the San Onofre site ... cuz, ya can't take it anyplace
... Hey, they done a EIR on "Old Man's"
Won't help with what we already "have" hitting us .... but, may reduce the long term potential for future "additions" to our daily "dose" ....
Say, think there will be a "BullFrog" with R factor rating ...
Just to keep things in perspective, ***ushima is releasing several hundred tons per day of water contaiminated with fission products. The bombs
dropped on Japan contained about 150 pounds of fissionable material and less than a kilogram actually fissioned before it blew apart. It was all over
in a few shakes of a lamb's tail.
In terms of contamination, ***ushima is MUCH worse, especially since the release is uncontrolled and into the ocean. It doesn't make much sense to
compare the two except perhaps to demonstrate that contamination from bombs is tiny compared to events like Chernobyl and ***ushima.
Originally posted by DianaT
.......And the dropping of the A-bombs is also controversial as it was not a necessary act to end the war, especially the dropping of the second one.
Diane....My fsther was a US Marine in WWII and a surviving veteran of Okinawa and Iwo Jima. He was one of many thousands of US servicemen in the
Pacific Theater who were scheduled for Operation Olympic and were grateful for the decision to drop the Bomb(s).
Maybe you should talk to the Pacific campaign survivors who are still around from "The Greatest Generation" and do some research on WWII, especially
the plans for Operation Downfall and casualty estimates of US military and Japanese military and civilians, and the Japanese military and civilian
mindset, even after dropping the first bomb.
Dropping the Bomb(s) saved lives. Not only military and civilian at the time, but those of future generations on both sides.
Now back to the current discussion on radioactive water pollution...................
Originally posted by DianaT
.......And the dropping of the A-bombs is also controversial as it was not a necessary act to end the war, especially the dropping of the second one.
Diane....My fsther was a US Marine in WWII and a surviving veteran of Okinawa and Iwo Jima. He was one of many thousands of US servicemen in the
Pacific Theater who were scheduled for Operation Olympic and were grateful for the decision to drop the Bomb(s).
Maybe you should talk to the Pacific campaign survivors who are still around from "The Greatest Generation" and do some research on WWII, especially
the plans for Operation Downfall and casualty estimates of US military and Japanese military and civilians, and the Japanese military and civilian
mindset, even after dropping the first bomb.
Dropping the Bomb(s) saved lives. Not only military and civilian at the time, but those of future generations on both sides.
Now back to the current discussion on radioactive water pollution...................
I had lots of relatives who fought in WW II --- doesn't matter. The dropping of the bombs is one of the great historical debates. Lots of evidence
that it was not necessary. And evidence that supports the other idea --- neither are absolute which is true of most history. That is why it belongs
in off topic. And the idea of the "Greatest Generation" is also quite debatable. Great in some ways, maybe, and any thing but great in other areas.
Just as that crude and tasteless picture and any discussion of Detroit belongs in off topic.
Following this current problem will be interesting and it could affect Baja---- the other topics are off-topic debates.
Originally posted by DianaT
.......And the dropping of the A-bombs is also controversial as it was not a necessary act to end the war, especially the dropping of the second one.
Diane....My fsther was a US Marine in WWII and a surviving veteran of Okinawa and Iwo Jima. He was one of many thousands of US servicemen in the
Pacific Theater who were scheduled for Operation Olympic and were grateful for the decision to drop the Bomb(s).
Maybe you should talk to the Pacific campaign survivors who are still around from "The Greatest Generation" and do some research on WWII, especially
the plans for Operation Downfall and casualty estimates of US military and Japanese military and civilians, and the Japanese military and civilian
mindset, even after dropping the first bomb.
Dropping the Bomb(s) saved lives. Not only military and civilian at the time, but those of future generations on both sides.
Now back to the current discussion on radioactive water pollution...................
I had lots of relatives who fought in WW II --- doesn't matter. The dropping of the bombs is one of the great historical debates. Lots of evidence
that it was not necessary. And evidence that supports the other idea --- neither are absolute which is true of most history. That is why it belongs
in off topic. And the idea of the "Greatest Generation" is also quite debatable. Great in some ways, maybe, and any thing but great in other areas.
Just as that crude and tasteless picture and any discussion of Detroit belongs in off topic.
Following this current problem will be interesting and it could affect Baja---- the other topics are off-topic debates.
On the bombs---------those in the "know" made the decisions, and I am fortunate enough to be in a position to have direct contact with one of them
over many years---------that trumps the second-guessers, in my book. (there are ALWAYS second-guessers). My Uncle wrote an unpublished book on the
subject, which I am lucky enough to own.
Hmmmmm, It seems to me that folks most often want things to be relegated to "Off Topic" when they don't agree with the points being made, regardless
of relativity or interest.
my grandpa was a crew chief on one of the bombers while training in the Marianna's after the fact. he had some crazy stories of radiation detectors
aka human guinnea pigs.
On the bombs---------those in the "know" made the decisions, and I am fortunate enough to be in a position to have direct contact with one of them
over many years---------that trumps the second-guessers, in my book. (there are ALWAYS second-guessers). My Uncle wrote an unpublished book on the
subject, which I am lucky enough to own.
Barry
One man's opinion is all it is. There are lots of people who were in the"know" who disagreed then and wrote about it. Also there is lots of
documentation that supports the other view.
It is not a matter of second guessers ---- most of it is the interpretation of the facts which are few and far between in history.
Now that is the last I will say on the subject. It is nice that you have book your uncle wrote, but it can not be the absolute definitive
interpretation of what happened because no book ever is.
And since both sides of a few things have been expressed here, it is not a matter of disagreeing with anything which screams take it to off-topic, it
IS off-topic opinions. That is of course if anyone is willing to jump in that sewer.
Originally posted by woody with a view
my grandpa was a crew chief on one of the bombers while training in the Marianna's after the fact. he had some crazy stories of radiation detectors
aka human guinnea pigs.
Just for some possible background on "radiation" damage-------my Uncle, tho on the Nagasaki bomb run, and involved with the "Manhattan Project" for
several years, lived to be almost 94, dying in 2005 of multiple organ failure directly after having a heart operation. No known radiation damage.
OK, back to the topic at hand, ocean contamination by fission reactors gone awry or generating undisposible waste. In addition to ***ushima, read
about what's happening at Hanford WA. Nine very old and now shut down primitive plutonium breeder reactors that have produced waste for about 40
years, much of it liquid. It's getting into the water table and the Columbia. Lots of leaks. It is a huge mess.
On the bombs---------those in the "know" made the decisions, and I am fortunate enough to be in a position to have direct contact with one of them
over many years---------that trumps the second-guessers, in my book. (there are ALWAYS second-guessers). My Uncle wrote an unpublished book on the
subject, which I am lucky enough to own.
Barry
It is not a matter of second guessers ---- most of it is the interpretation of the facts which are few and far between in history.
To the contrary-----Fortunately "the facts" are VERY well documented, and are VERY well known. What one makes of "the facts" is, of course, up to
them. An appropriate number of opinions were sought from the apparently best-qualified, and the qualified decision-makers made there choices. I
don't know of a better way of doing it in a Republic, do you?
There are always those that have their agenda that question everything (many which make their living doing it)---------and that is ok---------but it
ain't necessarily the gospel, on any subject.
Originally posted by rts551
Wow...Barry I am impressed. You knew those people in the Know who made the decisions? President, Sec of State, Sec of Defense. Wow/
Well, out of modesty I did not want to claim that (and I didn't, of course). You are now muddying the water, which is what people do when they want
to discredit someone dishonestly, even in presumed humor.
The fact that it was my Uncle who "I knew", and what I claimed, apparently is just insignificant----------to discredit someone is now the aim,
apparently---------and I am not surprised.
If not the consumers who benefited from the plant, who do you think should pay for the decommissioning?
In the long run, I don't know if the consumers benefited
from San Onofre, some time ago during one of the
scheduled refuelings, I was told by a Manager there
that Edison could buy replacement elec cheaper than they
could produce at San Onofre, the stockholders of Edison
should pay for the decommissioning, Edison made a
mistake by going with unproven Mitsubishi to build the
replacement steam generators, it cost many people their
jobs
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
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"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
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