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Whale-ista
Super Nomad
Posts: 2009
Registered: 2-18-2013
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Sunny with chance of whales
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I appreciate the discussion. Hopefully it stays friendly. (Please play nicely people!)
Here's a site that's fairly readable for us non-science types- it also has some good charts:
http://zipcodezoo.com/Trends/Trends%20in%20Global%20Temperat...
The long term temp trends are pretty clear. I've read nothing credible about the planet being in a cooling trend. Any links/citations about that? And
if all this heat is in fact short term, well... better to plan ahead, and if things are indeed cooling we can all breathe a sigh of relief.
While it's true the winter storms are getting colder (beware the "Polar Vortex"!), the overall trend is showing global temps moving upward. Also,
storms are getting more powerful and encroaching into areas that are not designed/prepared for storm surges (see: recent typhoons in Philipines, not
to mention Katrina and the Jersey Shore).
So again, it's the variability that is increasing: colder winters, warmer summers, stronger storms all the way around- but overall the trend is
towards warmer.
Or as I summarize: Heat is energy=a more energetic planet=higher highs, lower lows, faster turnarounds from both.
And less water in some places, too much in others.
\"Probably the airplanes will bring week-enders from Los Angeles before long, and the beautiful poor bedraggled old town will bloom with a
Floridian ugliness.\" (John Steinbeck, 1940, discussing the future of La Paz, BCS, Mexico)
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Whale-ista
......
Baja example: The massive greenhouses for Driscoll and others in the Lazaro Card##as area of Baja. These are already conserving water by shifting to
indoor gardening. They use less water, require fewer pesticides/herbicides, and probably offset the construction costs within a few years via these
measures.
.....
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These positive changes in that area are rather recent, as is the increase in using desal water. It was only after they sucked up so much of the
ground water that the water became too saline. It is sad, when change has to follow a problem, rather than forestall a problem.
A very good website you quoted.
[Edited on 3-12-2014 by DianaT]
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elgatoloco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4332
Registered: 11-19-2002
Location: Yes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
97% of the Climate Scientists surveyed? That survey has already been debunked. Facts aren't agreeing with the climate change model, don't guess we
need any "stinking facts". Ignoring and insulting anyone that might disagree with the politically correct crowd is the usual response. As far as the
water situation? Those folks in that region better get very innovative. 
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Please share the "facts". Debunked by whom? Please point me in the right direction so I can be better informed.
I anxiously await your response. Really. 
MAGA
Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
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DianaT
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Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Humans can't change weather.... That is the 'Nature' I am speaking of, because if I said God half of you would really flip out.
Volcanos, sunspots, meteors, wobble in earth's rotation axis can affect weather/ climate (acts of Nature/ God). One thing's for sure, the planet is
NOT static, it is dynamic (changes) and has been long before man or fossil fuel use!!! We are in a COOLING trend now... happened right after Al Gore
made his deceptive movie with reversed graphs. In the 70's it was announced we were going into an ice age by the fanatics who didn't get the drama
they needed so changed their story to global warming!
I contest that some government agency that wants more of your money for his job security (or ex-vice president) can change the weather by making all
of us poorer. A scam is a scam... the climate changes 'naturally' and not because we drive cars or produce food and products used in the rest of the
world.
......... |
Please, link to some valid sources for these ideas.
Of course there are natural forces that change weather and climate --- please cite sources that say that we are now in a long term cooling trend and
that humans have NO influence on climate and weather so we can all be better informed.
And while you are at it, since you find the declaration of an emergency drought situation so hilarious, please cite your sources that say the
declaration in not necessary to assist those who are really hurting from the drought? Again, for the sake of information this would be important
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Not the one big rain we had just after he made the declaration (which was hilarious), but what THIS thread (read it) is saying, Diana.
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On edit BTW--- this region would be far less impacted by the drought if Los Angeles did not consume so much of the water from here
[Edited on 3-12-2014 by DianaT]
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
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Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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Let's see: Earth 4,000,000,000 years
Man: 500 years since sailing charts screamed HERE THERE BE MONSTERS!
1920's weather "forecasts" created by ships anchored 200 miles off the Pacific Coast.
Al Gore's Tennessee mansion consumed $30,000 in electricity in 2006
My last bi-mestural electrical bill was 127 kWh meaning 68 kWh per month.
My head hurts.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Humans can't change weather.... That is the 'Nature' I am speaking of, because if I said God half of you would really flip out.
Volcanos, sunspots, meteors, wobble in earth's rotation axis can affect weather/ climate (acts of Nature/ God). One thing's for sure, the planet is
NOT static, it is dynamic (changes) and has been long before man or fossil fuel use!!! We are in a COOLING trend now... happened right after Al Gore
made his deceptive movie with reversed graphs. In the 70's it was announced we were going into an ice age by the fanatics who didn't get the drama
they needed so changed their story to global warming!
I contest that some government agency that wants more of your money for his job security (or ex-vice president) can change the weather by making all
of us poorer. A scam is a scam... the climate changes 'naturally' and not because we drive cars or produce food and products used in the rest of the
world.
......... |
Please, link to some valid sources for these ideas.
Of course there are natural forces that change weather and climate --- please cite sources that say that we are now in a long term cooling trend and
that humans have NO influence on climate and weather so we can all be better informed.
And while you are at it, since you find the declaration of an emergency drought situation so hilarious, please cite your sources that say the
declaration in not necessary to assist those who are really hurting from the drought? Again, for the sake of information this would be important
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Not the one big rain we had just after he made the declaration (which was hilarious), but what THIS thread (read it) is saying, Diana.
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On edit BTW--- this region would be far less impacted by the drought if Los Angeles did not consume so much of the water from here
[Edited on 3-12-2014 by DianaT] |
Here is one link, Diane. I grabbed the first one that popped up.
I personally think the arguements about man-caused climate change, or not man-caused, are a huge waste of mental energy and time. As I understand it,
even the most strident climate-change advocates admit that realistically nothing man does will change the outcome more than about 3% (high estimate)
at most, and will cost trillions worldwide. I, and MANY others simply don't think it is worth it to disrupt and damage the economies of all Nations
to maybe change things "3%" or less (probably less). Just does not pencil-out, and is not realistic or practical.
As for Owens Valley and it's water-------before LA grabbed it, most Owen's Valley (Eastern Sierra) water was arguably wasted, and just evaporated.
For centuries (?) if seldom got past Owens Lake, or Little Lake at max....and agriculture at 4000 feet plus elevation was marginal.
Barry
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Whale-ista
Super Nomad
Posts: 2009
Registered: 2-18-2013
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Sunny with chance of whales
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The concept of "wasted" rarely exists in nature
I always wonder how nature is assumed to be "wasteful." Since people weren't hunting/fishing in big boats not that long ago, were all those fish in
the seas "wasted" by us not eating them 
Likewise, the water in Owens Valley, that has fed into Mono Lake and created those wonderful "tufa" formations, long before LA needed it, was never
"wasted" by the local environment. It fed plants, animals, etc. Mark Twain marvelled at Mono Lake's productivity and wrote about it. (He hated the
flies along the shore)
Maybe it didn't produce a huge agricultural boom, but the ecosystem that evolved relied on that water. When it was diverted via Muholland's aqueduct
lots of bad things happened.
(I know we have a Nomad who lives near Bishop- perhaps she can add some details?)
Examples:
Wildlife: birds nesting on islands in Mono Lake were nearly wiped out as the water level declined and predators were able to reach the nesting
grounds. Ground nesting is common in many areas, but is also a delicate balancing act. These birds included many of the gulls that we see along the
coasts. So the impacts on wildlife were felt hundreds, even thousands of miles away.
Air quality: The groundwater helped keep the alkali dust in place- when LA diverted the water, the 'dust bowl" conditions were so bad that asthma
soared in the valley. It has improved, but the air quality in that region is still worse than it was before the "straw" began sucking water south.
Local groundwater supplies: as surface water is drained away, wells dry up for local households, making it more expensive and reducing its quality.
And in the end, a lawsuit forced LA to conserve water. Guess what: they managed to use much less, once they were forced to, and the levels in Mono
Lake have recovered, along with the birds etc.
Finally, today on the radio I heard Gov. Brown basically say: prepare to be told to remove your lawns if these dry weather conditions continue. The
"recommendations" and "suggestions" that have been used in the past may soon be replaced with mandates.
\"Probably the airplanes will bring week-enders from Los Angeles before long, and the beautiful poor bedraggled old town will bloom with a
Floridian ugliness.\" (John Steinbeck, 1940, discussing the future of La Paz, BCS, Mexico)
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DavidE
Let's see: Earth 4,000,000,000 years
Man: 500 years since sailing charts screamed HERE THERE BE MONSTERS!
1920's weather "forecasts" created by ships anchored 200 miles off the Pacific Coast.
Al Gore's Tennessee mansion consumed $30,000 in electricity in 2006
My last bi-mestural electrical bill was 127 kWh meaning 68 kWh per month.
My head hurts. |
I use "duct tape" ... helps with "explosions" too ... 
Lets toss in the "Delta" in CA too ... 
Climax community or "Steady State Community" ... that is wasteful ... interesting thought, think the wasteful part comes in, with a "certain" species
... I won't mention any names
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climax_community
[Edited on 3-12-2014 by wessongroup]
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
Member Is Offline
Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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IMMHO the "clear-cutting" of ocean fisheries is being criminally ignored. Freakin' Russians were scooping up hundreds of thousands of tons of "Hake"
for use a fertilizer in Russia.
Utilization of resources is one thing, contemptuous abuse quite another. Another fantastic daydream of mine...
Offer a Billion Dollar tax free "prize" to the inventor who extracts CARBON out of the atmosphere to be used to manufacture CARBON FIBER products to
replace steel, aluminum and plastic.
Hell, if a person daydreams, might as well shoot for the moon...
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Whale-ista
I always wonder how nature is assumed to be "wasteful." Since people weren't hunting/fishing in big boats not that long ago, were all those fish in
the seas "wasted" by us not eating them
Likewise, the water in Owens Valley, that has fed into Mono Lake and created those wonderful "tufa" formations, long before LA needed it, was never
"wasted" by the local environment. It fed plants, animals, etc. Mark Twain marvelled at Mono Lake's productivity and wrote about it. (He hated the
flies along the shore)
Maybe it didn't produce a huge agricultural boom, but the ecosystem that evolved relied on that water. When it was diverted via Muholland's aqueduct
lots of bad things happened.
(I know we have a Nomad who lives near Bishop- perhaps she can add some details?)
Examples:
Wildlife: birds nesting on islands in Mono Lake were nearly wiped out as the water level declined and predators were able to reach the nesting
grounds. Ground nesting is common in many areas, but is also a delicate balancing act. These birds included many of the gulls that we see along the
coasts. So the impacts on wildlife were felt hundreds, even thousands of miles away.
Air quality: The groundwater helped keep the alkali dust in place- when LA diverted the water, the 'dust bowl" conditions were so bad that asthma
soared in the valley. It has improved, but the air quality in that region is still worse than it was before the "straw" began sucking water south.
Local groundwater supplies: as surface water is drained away, wells dry up for local households, making it more expensive and reducing its quality.
And in the end, a lawsuit forced LA to conserve water. Guess what: they managed to use much less, once they were forced to, and the levels in Mono
Lake have recovered, along with the birds etc.
Finally, today on the radio I heard Gov. Brown basically say: prepare to be told to remove your lawns if these dry weather conditions continue. The
"recommendations" and "suggestions" that have been used in the past may soon be replaced with mandates. |
It's all in how you look at it, isn't it?
---but a few nit-picky points:
(1) My Family lived in Owens Valley (near Bishop, and near Independence) from the '20's until now----none of them ever developed "asthma", thank Gawd,
and the "dust bowl" statements are a tad overstated, but yes air-quality did deterioriate after Owens Lake and the Owens River bed dried up. That is
now being rectified because of additional Law suits which went against the City of LA, and my Family is involved in that correction at the Lake.
(2) No "Owens Valley water" flows into Mono Lake, now or in the past. But the rest of your "Mono Lake" points are correct except that the Lake is far
from "recovered"-----that will take years, and some very good winter rains and snowpack, but it is rising slowly but surely.
(3) The "Law suits" that you refer to required DWP (city of LA) to reduce some of their diversions from Mono Lake's watershed-----how LA coped with
that was outside the scope of the Law suit, as I understand it.
(4) Owens Valley water tables have fluxuated over the years, but have remained fairly stable most of the time, and few wells actually dried up. Some
surface wild trees did die, however. There have been additional Law suits on this matter that mostly corrected any problems----again the City of LA
lost those battles. They were sucking to much ground water at times, especially during dry years.
Californians do waste a lot of water, especially SoCal residents, and they may be in for a rude awaking, you are correct. Having lived in San Diego
for 30 years, Owens Valley for 10 years, and then the Imperial Valley for another 13 years, I am very familiar with SoCal water problems from a human
point of view..
Barry
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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It all flows some place ... just that sometimes the flow and direction is changed ... with obvious impacts both positive and negative
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_lake#Conservation_efforts
And when it gets a bit short ... things really change ... fast
This has made me thirsty
[Edited on 3-12-2014 by wessongroup]
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Whale-ista
I always wonder how nature is assumed to be "wasteful." Since people weren't hunting/fishing in big boats not that long ago, were all those fish in
the seas "wasted" by us not eating them
Likewise, the water in Owens Valley, that has fed into Mono Lake and created those wonderful "tufa" formations, long before LA needed it, was never
"wasted" by the local environment. It fed plants, animals, etc. Mark Twain marvelled at Mono Lake's productivity and wrote about it. (He hated the
flies along the shore)
Maybe it didn't produce a huge agricultural boom, but the ecosystem that evolved relied on that water. When it was diverted via Muholland's aqueduct
lots of bad things happened.
(I know we have a Nomad who lives near Bishop- perhaps she can add some details?)
Examples:
Wildlife: birds nesting on islands in Mono Lake were nearly wiped out as the water level declined and predators were able to reach the nesting
grounds. Ground nesting is common in many areas, but is also a delicate balancing act. These birds included many of the gulls that we see along the
coasts. So the impacts on wildlife were felt hundreds, even thousands of miles away.
Air quality: The groundwater helped keep the alkali dust in place- when LA diverted the water, the 'dust bowl" conditions were so bad that asthma
soared in the valley. It has improved, but the air quality in that region is still worse than it was before the "straw" began sucking water south.
Local groundwater supplies: as surface water is drained away, wells dry up for local households, making it more expensive and reducing its quality.
And in the end, a lawsuit forced LA to conserve water. Guess what: they managed to use much less, once they were forced to, and the levels in Mono
Lake have recovered, along with the birds etc.
Finally, today on the radio I heard Gov. Brown basically say: prepare to be told to remove your lawns if these dry weather conditions continue. The
"recommendations" and "suggestions" that have been used in the past may soon be replaced with mandates. |
It's all in how you look at it, isn't it?
---but a few nit-picky points:
(1) My Family lived in Owens Valley (near Bishop, and near Independence) from the '20's until now----none of them ever developed "asthma", thank Gawd,
and the "dust bowl" statements are a tad overstated, but yes air-quality did deterioriate after Owens Lake and the Owens River bed dried up. That is
now being rectified because of additional Law suits which went against the City of LA, and my Family is involved in that correction at the Lake.
(2) No "Owens Valley water" flows into Mono Lake, now or in the past. But the rest of your "Mono Lake" points are correct except that the Lake is far
from "recovered"-----that will take years, and some very good winter rains and snowpack, but it is rising slowly but surely.
(3) The "Law suits" that you refer to required DWP (city of LA) to reduce some of their diversions from Mono Lake's watershed-----how LA coped with
that was outside the scope of the Law suit, as I understand it.
(4) Owens Valley water tables have fluxuated over the years, but have remained fairly stable most of the time, and few wells actually dried up. Some
surface wild trees did die, however. There have been additional Law suits on this matter that mostly corrected any problems----again the City of LA
lost those battles. They were sucking to much ground water at times, especially during dry years.
Californians do waste a lot of water, especially SoCal residents, and they may be in for a rude awaking, you are correct. Having lived in San Diego
for 30 years, Owens Valley for 10 years, and then the Imperial Valley for another 13 years, I am very familiar with SoCal water problems from a human
point of view..
Barry |
How do you come to the conclusion that SoCal residents waste a lot of water? With the increased costs of water, I find that more and more people are
conserving water. The same thing is happening in Bahia Asuncion now that water usage is being monitored and charged accordingly.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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BajaBoy--------I am speaking historically. Since I have been away from SoCal for some 28 years I really should not have made that statement, I
suppose. I just remember a LOT of green lawns in SoCal, and many are still there. But yes, I understand that things are improving, and people ARE
realizing that water is important to conserve. Hopefully more will in the near future, especially if the population increases.
Most of SoCal & Baja is technically a desert most years (def.= under 10 inches of rain annually) and in the past most people really did not grasp
that fact. They may now.
Barry
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
It all flows some place ... just that sometimes the flow and direction is changed ... with obvious impacts both positive and negative
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_lake#Conservation_efforts
And when it gets a bit short ... things really change ... fast
This has made me thirsty
[Edited on 3-12-2014 by wessongroup] |
Many people "in the know" predict that "water-wars" will replace "oil wars" in the near future---------does not seem far-fetched to me.
Barry
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
BajaBoy--------I am speaking historically. Since I have been away from SoCal for some 28 years I really should not have made that statement, I
suppose. I just remember a LOT of green lawns in SoCal, and many are still there. But yes, I understand that things are improving, and people ARE
realizing that water is important to conserve. Hopefully more will in the near future, especially if the population increases.
Most of SoCal & Baja is technically a desert most years (def.= under 10 inches of rain annually) and in the past most people really did not grasp
that fact. They may now.
Barry |
Another big movement, at least in San Diego, is rain water harvesting: http://www.sandiego.gov/water/conservation/rainwater.shtml
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
Member Is Offline
Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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Bajaboy,
Holy Mole, who the heck in B.A. was "wasting water"? The cannery? Seems to be a tad lacking in lawns and water slides around here...
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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BajaLuna
Senior Nomad
Posts: 581
Registered: 12-5-2012
Location: Pacific Northwest/Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
Mood: groovy
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Kudos to Gov. Brown...that needed to be done a long time ago, IMHO.
Maybe people should give up their big beautiful water wasting/water guzzling/water thirsty lawns and plant a food garden, kills 2 birds with 1
stone...don't have to rely on Cali big Agri for your food, and the water is going to feed you so no wasteful water use! And put in a DIY automatic
water system, which conserves water. I love seeing gardens in people's front yard...like in the old days of Victory Gardens!
The water wars are here, and the Water Police are coming, that's for sure and it's only going to get worse. I suppose when people have to pay even
more for their food, or go without some of what they are use to eating/buying that grows in Cali... they might wake up and stop laughing about it.
It's going to impact us all in one way or the other.
I doubt Washington State will be able to contribute to the lack of water in Cali, because we have had a very rare dry winter here, and our local ski
resorts which normally open in late Nov. didn't open until Feb this year. We had a small snowfall at my house in late Nov, about 3 inches...and none
since. I have a HUGE lawn, and IF I had to water it to keep it green I would use the space for more garden or let it die. Luckily we don't have to
water our lawn here.
We need a shift of perspective...on one of my trips home to san diego..my cousin says to me...people around here have really let their yards go to
chit, they don't water their lawns and they are brown and unsightly! To me, I thought it was great...that water use can go for more important things!
Hail Hail to those unsightly brown lawns!
Unfortunately until mandatory regulations to conserve water are put into place in Cali or anywhere for that matter...nothing will change. People are
asleep!
Gov. Brown needs to stop talking about it and DO IT NOW!
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
Member Is Offline
Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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If you can (truthfully) not Google the term POCONIP
and know what it means, then do the same with a deceased individual by the name of DAVID GAINES, then you know about the mono basin. Pool Plant,
Black, point, Paohoa and Negrit count as extra points. What kind of fish in Gibbs lake and creek, then the first names of the "Nicely's" the original
owners of the restaurant put you in the "expert" category. 
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Whale-ista
I always wonder how nature is assumed to be "wasteful." Since people weren't hunting/fishing in big boats not that long ago, were all those fish in
the seas "wasted" by us not eating them
Likewise, the water in Owens Valley, that has fed into Mono Lake and created those wonderful "tufa" formations, long before LA needed it, was never
"wasted" by the local environment. It fed plants, animals, etc. Mark Twain marvelled at Mono Lake's productivity and wrote about it. (He hated the
flies along the shore)
Maybe it didn't produce a huge agricultural boom, but the ecosystem that evolved relied on that water. When it was diverted via Muholland's aqueduct
lots of bad things happened.
(I know we have a Nomad who lives near Bishop- perhaps she can add some details?)
Examples:
Wildlife: birds nesting on islands in Mono Lake were nearly wiped out as the water level declined and predators were able to reach the nesting
grounds. Ground nesting is common in many areas, but is also a delicate balancing act. These birds included many of the gulls that we see along the
coasts. So the impacts on wildlife were felt hundreds, even thousands of miles away.
Air quality: The groundwater helped keep the alkali dust in place- when LA diverted the water, the 'dust bowl" conditions were so bad that asthma
soared in the valley. It has improved, but the air quality in that region is still worse than it was before the "straw" began sucking water south.
Local groundwater supplies: as surface water is drained away, wells dry up for local households, making it more expensive and reducing its quality.
And in the end, a lawsuit forced LA to conserve water. Guess what: they managed to use much less, once they were forced to, and the levels in Mono
Lake have recovered, along with the birds etc.
Finally, today on the radio I heard Gov. Brown basically say: prepare to be told to remove your lawns if these dry weather conditions continue. The
"recommendations" and "suggestions" that have been used in the past may soon be replaced with mandates. |
It's all in how you look at it, isn't it?
---but a few nit-picky points:
(1) My Family lived in Owens Valley (near Bishop, and near Independence) from the '20's until now----none of them ever developed "asthma", thank Gawd,
and the "dust bowl" statements are a tad overstated, but yes air-quality did deterioriate after Owens Lake and the Owens River bed dried up. That is
now being rectified because of additional Law suits which went against the City of LA, and my Family is involved in that correction at the Lake.
(2) No "Owens Valley water" flows into Mono Lake, now or in the past. But the rest of your "Mono Lake" points are correct except that the Lake is far
from "recovered"-----that will take years, and some very good winter rains and snowpack, but it is rising slowly but surely.
(3) The "Law suits" that you refer to required DWP (city of LA) to reduce some of their diversions from Mono Lake's watershed-----how LA coped with
that was outside the scope of the Law suit, as I understand it.
(4) Owens Valley water tables have fluxuated over the years, but have remained fairly stable most of the time, and few wells actually dried up. Some
surface wild trees did die, however. There have been additional Law suits on this matter that mostly corrected any problems----again the City of LA
lost those battles. They were sucking to much ground water at times, especially during dry years.
Californians do waste a lot of water, especially SoCal residents, and they may be in for a rude awaking, you are correct. Having lived in San Diego
for 30 years, Owens Valley for 10 years, and then the Imperial Valley for another 13 years, I am very familiar with SoCal water problems from a human
point of view..
Barry |
Barry,
1. I think many people in Lone Pine and Keeler would disagree with your conclusions of the air quality issues on the dry Owen's Lake Bed. And the
LADWP is trying to weasel out of doing all of the dust control that was ordered. Some of the pollution is caused from things that ended up in the
lakes during the mining era. And yes, I know where your son lives. :-)
2 - 3. Yes, Mono Lake is north of the Owens Valley, but it is all a part of the same water grab and it took a lot of money to win that battle! And
yes, it has a long ways to go.
4. LADWP right now is wanting more of the ground water and we have ground wells drying up in the west part of Bishop and elsewhere. And the way
LADWP is dealing with replanting trees does not make a lot of sense, but it is following the "letter" of the lawsuits. Again, it cost a lot of money
to win those lawsuits.
The major development of Los Angeles and the San Fernando Valley should have never happened in that environment and would not have happened without
the water from the Owen's Valley.
As far as ag up around here, there did used to be quite a number of fruit orchards; enough to support the train station at Zurich. But it is a
difficult place for many products. It is a shame the water was taken; and much of it was taken with quite underhanded methods. Too bad the locals
didn't win the war at Lone Pine.
As far as it being wasted water, well I guess one could say that the water in Yosemite that LA also had their eye on is wasted -- I guess one could
argue that.
Also, you know that we are in a drought and how damaging it has been to the economics in this area and other areas, so do you think that the
declaration of a drought emergency by Brown was hilarious, or well needed and perhaps late in coming?
[Edited on 3-12-2014 by DianaT]
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Diane--------San Francisco and the Bay Area gets the "Yosemite water", mainly thru Hetch Hetchy, I understand.
A distant member of my Family is a DWP Foreman on the Owens Lake "water spreading" detail, and says they are doing the best they can. I don't really
personally know more than that, other than we canoe the Owens River now outside Independence, and down by Lone Pine----fun, fun!!!. That would have
been a dusty-effort in the old days.
I never even noticed the "air quality" being bad all the years I lived just outside Independence (1945 thru 1956), but admit I was only there during
the summer months, and not in the main windy times in Fall and Spring. My son, who has lived in Independence for 12 years full time says "dust" is
not a problem, in his mind, and he DOES have lung problems from birth (allergic to dust). People see things differently, of course.
On edit------As I said, some years the water-table drops, and trees die, or are stunted. I was not even aware of DWP planting trees, however.
Nothing works perfectly, even Nature. West Bishop is slightly elevated, and the water table drops disproportionately, I am told. LA is desparate for
water-----is it any surprise that they want more? Realistically they will try practically anything to get more water-------no surprise there!!!
You are mis-quoting DavidK (for effect???)-------he was not laughing at the drought, and you know it. Mis-quotes out of context like that are one of
the main causes of mis-information and bad feeling between people, IMO.
Barry
[Edited on 3-12-2014 by Barry A.]
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