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Pescador
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Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldhippie
Also, let's keep politics out of this. This is science. The off-topic threads are for politics. |
Unfortunately this is almost impossible to do. The way I see and view the world is directly tied to my perceptions and beliefs. I am not smart
enough to figure out, scientifically that is, whether or not Global Warming is in fact happening but I see enough conflict and disagreement from both
sides of the political spectrum on this issue that I come to the conclusion that we really don't know yet and that most of the rhetoric and discussion
is nothing more than an excuse to further ones political postion.
The thing that I was pointing out here is that while you and I come from opposite sides of the political debate and philosophy, we are in almost
complete agreement on this issue of desalinization. So even if we wanted to further our agendas about the development of marketing of Loreto Bay, the
result is exactly the same. This is a bad idea and may
have serious complications for the entire Sea of Cortez. The biggest challenge is that most people do not have an indepth knowledge of desalinization
and assume it is nothing more than a simple process of separating salt from water and disposing of salt, which could mean that it may be way too easy
to get permits from the government to put in Desal plants since on the surface it looks like such a simple and great idea.
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Cap
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Pescador, thank you. You are a voice of reason above the din. Well stated facts, and reason will attract admiration and you have mine.
Fly low, land on roads.
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oldhippie
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"but I see enough conflict and disagreement from both sides of the political spectrum on this issue (global warming) that I come to the conclusion
that we really don't know yet "
Look for conflict and disagreement between scientists. Ignore the politicians. The politics in the global warming issue is due to one of its main
spokesman, a politician hated and respected by many, and the enormous financial implications if it is true.
A facility that filters water and sanitizes it with chlorine for a resort development should be easy to consider soley from a scientific point of
view.
[Edited on 8-6-2007 by oldhippie]
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
...If we have 5,000 units in Loreto Bay and we use 3,000 gallons per month (which is a little high) we are talking only 15 million gallons per month
which is 500,000 gallons per day, which is 21 thousand gallons per hour, which is about 350 gallons per minute.
Now the real issue arises. If we are doing 15 million gallons per month and we have about a 30% brine production, we are talking approximately 4.5
million gallons of toxic brine solution every month. Now that is something that can not be put back in the sea water SAFELY. |
The track everyone seems to be on here is the idea that Loreto Bay produce enough water from desal for its 5,000 units. So where does the water come
from for the 50,000 new Mexican residents to the Loreto area that FONATUR says will come as a direct result of the Loreto Bay development? When you
consider desalinization as an alternative for water in the Loreto area, we should (assuming the new developments don't fail) think of producing water
for at least 100,000 people. And that's a VERY conservative number when you factor Paraiso (6500 units+), Villas Group (2500 units), Golden Beach (?)
and factor in the "Harvard group" figures of nearly 20 new residents per unit vs. FONATUR's 10 per unit.
There have been a few mentions of using the desal plant(s) to produce marketable salt. Residual chemicals may be a problem, but consider that the vast
majority of commercial salt is for industrial use, not table salt. But the problem is the desal plant residue is a briney liquid. While it could, in
theory, be evaporated into a solid, most of the ground in the region is mountainous. Using the little available flat real estate in a resort area for
salt evaporation ponds may require a slight rise in the market price of salt. 
There was, of course, a salt business on Isla del Carmen for many years. It's out of business.
Best guess from what I've heard is that coastal wells may be the initial source for desal. These wells have water that has salt intrusion rendering it
unpotable. LB operates one such well at their nursery. These will produce less residual salt that sea water. In theory the resulting brine can be
pumped into aquifers where return to the sea, if any, would be gradual and dispersed.
Finally, there are advocates for municipal, not private, desal systems. These systems are expensive to build and operate and if the wealthy resorts
build their own, the tens of thousands of Mexican (and other) residents would have to build their own systems without the financial participation of
the wealthiest residents. That could result not only in more expensive water, but cheaper alternatives for brine disposal.
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oldhippie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
The track everyone seems to be on here is the idea that Loreto Bay produce enough water from desal for its 5,000 units. So where does the water come
from for the 50,000 new Mexican residents to the Loreto area that FONATUR says will come as a direct result of the Loreto Bay development? When you
consider desalinization as an alternative for water in the Loreto area, we should (assuming the new developments don't fail) think of producing water
for at least 100,000 people. And that's a VERY conservative number when you factor Paraiso (6500 units+), Villas Group (2500 units), Golden Beach (?)
and factor in the "Harvard group" figures of nearly 20 new residents per unit vs. FONATUR's 10 per unit.
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Doesn't make sense does it?
And to rub salt into the wound (sorry) I've read that NOBODY knows the recharge rate of the aquifers that do exist.
So even if they tried to limit development to what natural water resources can support, nobody knows what that limit is.
There is much fundamental work that needs to be done before Loreto is developed.
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flyfishinPam
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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I apologize for not reading through this entire thread but Iīd like to let you in on the current situation.
I live outsite the Miramar colonia beyond the water lines. The growth of Loreto is taking place so quickly that lands surrounding the town are
becoming settled and many of these settlers are without services. Since weīve been at our property we have had water delivered. We waited for five
and a half years before the elctrical lines were installed in our area but still there is no water. So from the beginning we had water delivered by
the cityīs pipa (water truck). We pay the city and also have to tip the driver or else he wonīt watch the level and will forget about us.
We used to get water delivered on monday, wednesday and friday of every week. Came like clockwork even while the water lines were broken after
Hurricane Juliette. For the past four months we get water every eight days and on the eigth day we end up running out. Last week we ran out of water
after 10 days of waiting for a delivery. This last time we got water (Friday 3 Aug) the pipa ran out and wasnīt able to fill our pila (holding tank).
The water that we did get smelled of metal like it had been sitting in a tank for twenty years, insecticide and urine! How can I shower in this
water, wash dishes, bathe my children?
So is this what Loretanos have to look forward to now?
This is happening to all my neighbors and the demand on the water supply just keeps increasing. Damn straight weīre gonna fight this!
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldhippie
And to rub salt into the wound (sorry) I've read that NOBODY knows the recharge rate of the aquifers that do exist.
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There was a new study done. No results have been released, but instead of results we have new restrictions on water use, and the problems Pam
describes with deliveries and quality.
No water lines to long existing homes in Mirimar, but rumor is that lines are going in at Paraiso before a single unit is started. Shows what the
priorities are.
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Pescador
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Pam, are you saying you got water from a tank truck or are you saying that you got water from the supply line? If you are getting water from the
supply line that is that bad, then the problem may have already started to show. It would seem to me that someone needs to complain to Sagarpa and
request a water test to see whether or not it is even safe.
Don Alley is right, in my simple illustration I only figured the water for Loreto Bay and did not even consider or factor in the numbers for the human
supply of workers. It really gets scary when you do that.
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flyfishinPam
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Posts: 1727
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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OK anybody out there know where we can get our water tested? in La Paz? I can send up to my friends at UC Davis if need be but hoping we can do it
in La Paz, or maybe Ciudad Constitucion?
According to the chamber of commerce those pipes ARE running from the aquafer to Loreto Paraiso. and yes in the estblished colonia of Miramar where
most of the growth is and will be taking place, less than 50% of residents have water lines.
on my lousy water, I donīt know the source (we get it from a tanker truck) but I will find out and will reserve a sample for testing for what its
worth.
[Edited on 8-6-2007 by flyfishinPam]
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
| Quote: | Originally posted by oldhippie
Also, let's keep politics out of this. This is science. The off-topic threads are for politics. |
Unfortunately this is almost impossible to do. The way I see and view the world is directly tied to my perceptions and beliefs. I am not smart
enough to figure out, scientifically that is, whether or not Global Warming is in fact happening but I see enough conflict and disagreement from both
sides of the political spectrum on this issue that I come to the conclusion that we really don't know yet and that most of the rhetoric and discussion
is nothing more than an excuse to further ones political postion.
The thing that I was pointing out here is that while you and I come from opposite sides of the political debate and philosophy, we are in almost
complete agreement on this issue of desalinization. So even if we wanted to further our agendas about the development of marketing of Loreto Bay, the
result is exactly the same. This is a bad idea and may
have serious complications for the entire Sea of Cortez. The biggest challenge is that most people do not have an indepth knowledge of desalinization
and assume it is nothing more than a simple process of separating salt from water and disposing of salt, which could mean that it may be way too easy
to get permits from the government to put in Desal plants since on the surface it looks like such a simple and great idea. |
Thank you Pescador. This is absolutely fair, reasonable and represents the best way to work through differences; constructive dialogue.
Old Hippie--Thank you for starting this most interesting and important string. Good discipline, sticking to the science and letting potential
detractors fall out.
I am learning a lot here!
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Who's "we"?
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
This is happening to all my neighbors and the demand on the water supply just keeps increasing. Damn straight weīre gonna fight this!
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So.....The candidates running for the new administration:
Any who are anti LB?
If not, why not?
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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"we" be the people
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Right.....
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
"we" be the people |
How many do "we" be?
What about my other questions?
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18100
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
"we" be the people |
"we the people" ain't Mexican, it seems to ring a bell, though 
Loreto development is fine, and what will be will be. If the water ain't reliable, then the development will be left like the ruins of the Anasazi,
just another puzzle for people to ponder as they pass by in their RVs. If concerned about colapse of civilization, get out now.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
OK anybody out there know where we can get our water tested? in La Paz? I can send up to my friends at UC Davis if need be but hoping we can do it
in La Paz, or maybe Ciudad Constitucion?
According to the chamber of commerce those pipes ARE running from the aquafer to Loreto Paraiso. and yes in the estblished colonia of Miramar where
most of the growth is and will be taking place, less than 50% of residents have water lines.
on my lousy water, I donīt know the source (we get it from a tanker truck) but I will find out and will reserve a sample for testing for what its
worth.
[Edited on 8-6-2007 by flyfishinPam] |
Ok, the water that comes in the truck is anybody's guess. During hurricane John, all our friends were getting water from a truck and it came from a
shallow irrigation well in San Lucas (South of Santa Rosalia) and was brackish and of terrible quality, so the only thing you can do there is to find
out where the truck is filling up and see if he won't change. He may be pulling water from a shallow well or other questionable source and if it
tests bad, then Sagarpa just shrugs it's shoulders and says so what.
I wanted to see the wells and water supply for Santa Rosalia and talked a friend into getting me a visit and when i got there I noticed the
chlorinator was not working. When I asked about it they said, "oh yeah, it broke about three years ago and we are going to replace it one of these
days". Thank goodness the wells by Agua Verde are deep enough and have no contamination from ground water so people are not getting sick, but make no
mistake, there is no chlorine in the water. I find this really funny because I have to test every 15 minutes, 24 hours a day, and if I fall below a
certain level then I have to shut the system down and notify all users.
So Iam sure you do not want to do a full analytical test to see about lead or other heavy metals but it would be interesting to test for things
like coloform bacteria, giardia, and cryptosporidium, which are the things that make you sick right away. Thank goodness we are dealing with deep
wells here and all the bad stuff is pretty well filtered out by the time the water goes from the surface to the deeper aquifers which hold the water.
So there is usually a lot of dissolved minerals in the water but little in the way that can cause illness or gastric distress.
What you really want to keep an eye out for is if the water starts to taste slightly brackish or salty. That will be the first indication that
they have taken too much water from the underground storage tank that we call an aquifer which is like an underground reservoir. These are usually
fed from high in the mountains in Baja and is one of the main reasons that hurricanes and rainy seasons are a good thing because it replaces the water
that we have taken out. Now if we take too much out then we have negative pressure in the aquifer and it wants to fill in from any readily available
source, which is usually the ocean in an area as close to the ocean as Loreto. Most aquifers that become intruded by salt water never recover and are
for all intents and purposes destroyed.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
"we" be the people |
How many do "we" be?
What about my other questions? |
go ahead and roll your eyes.
what I donīt understand is why you think it is ok for foreign developers to come to a tiny town, dictate its law and its future then take all the
water away. once the water is gone thatīs it.
ruins of developments that disintegrate into the landscape and are interesting to look at and poke fun of aside, but think of the people it will
destroy. so if we do get desal, who will pay? who will pay for the desal plant and who will pay the high price of the water that it will produce?
what kind of damage will it cause enviornmentally? yeah I can move away and make a living elsewhere I am lucky but if I were planning that Iīd just
shut up and leave.
I would rather stay so we have to fight for my family and for my neighbors and friends. I am not a selfish person, I do take care of my family but I
have no greed, I would rather have the respect of my friends and colleagues than become a pig feeding at the trough of temporary opportunity. The
people I know here are not so lucky that they can relocte easily for many reasons, you of all people should know that.
as for your questions, Iīll answer whatever questions I feel like so stop sounding like another poster who usually stays in the off topic fourm, use
your own tactic you do have one weīve all seen it. i do not know the platforms of the candidates as it is early but I will find out and I will
support the person who is for a responsible growth plan not one who only sees dollar signs like the current administration. with all the changes in
this town it will be difficult for the current party in power to win.
as I write the city is paving the street in front of my shop, or at least prepping it for pavement. They broke no less than three sewer lines in
front of us and that is only one city block. the raw sewage stinks out there and has been flooding all night. this is the kind of change that this
"progress" of development is bringing. So Dave, how would YOU like to have raw sewage spewing out in front of your deli? How would YOU like to faced
with the draining of YOUR townīs aquifers? How would YOU like it if your city was such a mess that you couldnīt even walk down the street let alone
drive reasonably. You have no justification for the eye roll and you have no bone in this fight.
as for displacement of freshwater by seawater in a spent aquafer, we wish that was the case but the real facts are that since the San Juan Londo
aquafer is so close to a geothermal area, we are seeing evidence of geothermal intrusion that contains high levels of Mercury, and Aresnic among other
heavy metals. This was discussed in a thread back in March, I think Don Alley posted it and I saw him at that meeting.
I am a former scientist (chemistry and biology) and as a true scientist (once a scientist always a scientist) I am inquisitive and abhor the lies that
are being cloaked in half-truths like one big developer is doing. I seek the truth and wish to educate the people whose very lives depend on the
important decisions these pigs are making for them. They have the disadvantage of not having a proper education, most donīt even make it beyond
secondario (Jr. High), many canīt read and donīt understand what is happening all around them. As I speak with people for instance when I explained
the heavy metal intrusion of our aquafer with them, they are angered. when I show them the pdf flie that LB put out especially the part where it says
they have all the water rights, they are angered further. when angry they have the passion to dictate their own future. what is bad about that? I
do not wish to make decisions for anyone but my own family and business but I will always educate people, get them to ask questions and sit back while
the people formulate their own decisions for THEIR future.
I would REALLY like to see a public town meeting in SPANISH presented by Loreto Bay and the other developers. LB has done them in the past for the
gringo community to "dispel rumors" but they never did it in Spanish for the residents of Loreto, the ones who vote and can actually control their own
futures. It is my opionon that the people deserve to hear the plans of the developers that will affect them for the rest of thier lives.
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backninedan
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Location: Loreto
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Dave, meet mtgoat, you two should get along just fine.
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MrBillM
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Life Isn't Fair !
Something most of us find out when we are young kids. We adjust accordingly. Although "almost" everyone of us who bought in Baja "hoped" for that
moment to be frozen in time, we knew deep down that it wouldn't be so.
IF the Money holds up and the politicos are paid well enough, the project will be built. PERIOD. When that happens, shed a tear and move on.
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
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Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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pam i don't know if you've driven up to loreto bay recently but...
it's too late...
it's a city of it's own...
i drove by yesterday and WOW!!!
with the buffer of the airport between it and the town most "buyers" will NEVER see a problem and sales will continue
growth for loreto is ineventable...
the city of loreto (JUST LIKE THE STATES) must deal with the issues of growth and demand these developers supply answers and support
once the development is finished you'll NEVER see the builders again
you complaine about your water delivery...you should become self-sufficent and look for a back-up delivery system
....maybe your own tanker or a BIGGER holding tank
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backninedan
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Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
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MrBillM
I'm afraid that this time you are dead on target. If the money holds out, the politicians will fall in line and it will continue.
I knew that things would change, just not so fast and so drastic. It may be getting close to the "move on" phase.
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