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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 2-9-2004
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What LB Co. is doing is unprecedented - A development of 6,000 units. The other desal plants in Baja are for single hotel complexes as a backup,
supplemental and emergency use which came years after the hotels were viable, and making a profit. What LB proposes is a desal plant which will
generate 1 to 1.5 million gallons per day. They need test wells, an EIS, approvals and the MONEY to build a desal plant - which costs between $14-20
million dollars, and they can't pass that cost on to the condo buyers of the Village. LB Co. is reluctant to foot the cost now, but instead, is
relying on their thin propoganda and veiled promises contained in the Sustainability Report to further their agenda without solid evidence that a
desal plant will actually be built. But the growth of Loreto - due to the construction of the Villages project - is also unprecedented, and as LB is
so shortsighed in everything they do, they didn't foresee that the water supply in Loreto would be affected before they could get the Villages built.
So now, they're pressured to get the water problem solved NOW and it's affecting the unit sales. In contrast, the growth of Cancun happened in a
similar fashion, but there is plenty of water there so that was not an issue, and it is not a desert environment, faces an ocean, not a gulf. So you
can hypothesize "IF the Money holds up and the politicos are paid well enough, the project will be built. PERIOD", but hard science and the facts of
life dictate otherwise. It's different this time. It won't be built if there are no buyers for the units - also unprecedented - one developer, one
project. Cabo and Cancun were created on a foundation of hotels - not build-on-demand condo units. This "sustainable" "urban village" concept is
simply untenable - it will never be "sustainable" - and is also unprecedented. They can talk all they want about Green building with compressed
block, etc., but unless there is a huge major reliable desal plant built in the next 2 years to prove to the new buyers that there will be water
(which will be dependent on the wind turbine power, which also must must be built), the Villages will not be built. The Villages project is no longer
dependent on buying ejido land, or greasing palms to purchase smaller parcels for the electric generator plant, the worker housing, etc. It's now a
matter of selling the condo units. And that, "we" can have an impact on. So you can't say that what's happened in the past in the FONATUR-inspired
development areas will eventually come to pass in Loreto because the factors dictating those developments don't parallel what is happening in Loreto.
In a different vein, three people from GEA (in Loreto?) were sent to Mexico City to attend the World Water Forum, and one person from the Organismo
Operador Municipal del Sistema de Agua Potable. The Forum had a very comprehensive agenda with presentations from around the world. These people must
have an opinion on how to govern the water supply in Loreto - at least have come away from the forum realizing that the water issue in Loreto and the
Villages is inexorable and must be dealt with. They should be contacted for their feedback and general information, possibly in a town meeting where
there can be some discussion, and the request for regular water testing, among other things. After all, they attended the Forum with LB Foundation
funds, which as we all know, is to benefit the community of Loreto. The only benefit to be derived from that expenditure is what those participants
gained in knowledge and understanding and its application to Loreto.
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
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Ya Pam, go out and buy a tanker truck lol. It makes me wonder how people can advise when they have no first hand information of a problem..
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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Mood: Full Time Residents
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dan
it's just "common sense"
if you are dependant on others and they are not producing...
don't "whine" about it...
take away the excuse...
a 525 gallon water tank to haul water is less than $500
500 gallons "should" last a week
santa rosalia has piped water every other day
and somtimes once a week
if those people didn't "plan ahead" for the shortages
they'd have no water and "stink"
your in a different place...you NEED to be self sufficient
LB is "built"
"it's too late to cry about spilled milk"
"if you have lemons amke lemonade"
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
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Is this what you tell the local people when water is more expensive than they can afford? "You should have planned ahead?"
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Jeez, I'm gonna have to buy a tanker truck in order to have water? Who's gonna
drive this rig? Hope there's room for parking it and turning it around.
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
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Maybe tanker truck sales is the new hot business??
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Where did you get that idea?
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
what I donīt understand is why you think it is ok for foreign developers to come to a tiny town, dictate its law and its future then take all the
water away.
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Not only do I think it's not OK, I consider it a criminal conspiracy. 
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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To those that say that the success of Loreto Bay is entirely dependent upon sales of the "units" I say you're almost correct. But, for the moment
let's say you're entirely correct.
The goal then would be to stop sales, perhaps by appealing to the same thinking that this supposedly eco-friendly developer is appealing to. They say
it's an environmentally safe development, we (explained below) say it's an environmental disaster.
The people that would like to see this development scaled back have just as much access to the world wide web as the developers. Judging from what has
been sent to me via the email address associated with my nomad account (we) have the entire skill set needed to present our point of view.
Does anybody know how many "units" have been sold? Would somebody be willing to attend a sales pitch and find out that and related information such as
price range and what they say about the fact that there's not enough water?
I imagine there will be a big fall/winter sales promotion. We should be ready to combat that.
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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the people "buying" will have an entirely different outlook...
"their" loreto bay will "save" loreto not destroy it
"their" new houses are made "way better" than the "old" stuff
remember these people will think by "changing" loreto it will become "better"
they NEVER saw the "old Loreto" and have no referance
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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Mood: Full Time Residents
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we have a trailer with a tank on it...no problems hauling water and no engine problems
you'll LEARN to drive...someday
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
the people "buying" will have an entirely different outlook...
"their" loreto bay will "save" loreto not destroy it
"their" new houses are made "way better" than the "old" stuff
remember these people will think by "changing" loreto it will become "better"
they NEVER saw the "old Loreto" and have no referance |
It won't be easy, that's for sure. I'm not going after folks who have made a decision to buy. I'm going after those thinking about it. I bet a large
number of sales are to people looking to flip the UNIT and make a few bucks. They could care less about the environment 700 miles south of the border.
So I'll also have to come up with other places that would be better to meet those goals. Shouldn't be hard considering the high prices Loreto Bay
UNITS are selling for.
There's at least two fronts in this battle. The environment and the financial. Plus there are certainly places where the weather is better and you can
drive to a grocery store.
Buying into Loreto Bay is buying into a bad dream.
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oldhippie
Banned
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Good point Larry. But another nomad wrote he was lured to Loreto because of their greenwash marketing. But he immediately saw through it all with the
time share sales techniques employed once there.
Who are the other folks you mentioned. We'll need to "de-placate" them also. If it's FONATUR, they will be "de-placated" when the money stops rolling
in. Their deal with LBC is that they get money as the UNITS are sold. LBC has not bought all the land they're planning on developing. It's a "rolling"
deal.
[Edited on 8-8-2007 by oldhippie]
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oldhippie
Banned
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Larry, see my post above yours. We were probably writing at the same time.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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I have to get to work (the paying kind). The company I contract with gave me a b-tchin' Dell laptop with a docking station, dual 19" monitors, and
wireless keyboard and mouse. I have to set it up and get back to building their Intranet.
I wonder how much Telnor would charge for a T1? 8^)
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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Greenwashing
One of the immediate benefits of greenwashing a development is it makes your press releases more media friendly.
There may be other benefits in the new wacky world of "carbon credits" as well. LB may be able to sell all of its eco and sustainability features to a
coal fired power plant in China, or a hogfarm in North Carolina.
I doubt it would be productive to get in a peeing match with various Loreto developers over the environment; I doubt that it's a big factor with the
majority of buyers. Those buying to flip will take their risks, and those buying for sunny warm beaches will figure it out eventually.
But if I were to talk to anyone thinking of "investing" in Loreto, I'd stress these simple points:
A study by a University if Arizona hydrologists suggests that the water source may be near exhaustion.
Rejecting that report, Mexico did their own study.
When Mexico's study was finished, the results were not made public. But water restrictions were immediately placed on water use in Loreto. Hmmm...
So, ready to invest a few hundred grand here, or would you rather go somewhere else with water?
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
Greenwashing
One of the immediate benefits of greenwashing a development is it makes your press releases more media friendly.
There may be other benefits in the new wacky world of "carbon credits" as well. LB may be able to sell all of its eco and sustainability features to a
coal fired power plant in China, or a hogfarm in North Carolina.
I doubt it would be productive to get in a ******* match with various Loreto developers over the environment; I doubt that it's a big factor with the
majority of buyers. Those buying to flip will take their risks, and those buying for sunny warm beaches will figure it out eventually.
But if I were to talk to anyone thinking of "investing" in Loreto, I'd stress these simple points:
A study by a University if Arizona hydrologists suggests that the water source may be near exhaustion.
Rejecting that report, Mexico did their own study.
When Mexico's study was finished, the results were not made public. But water restrictions were immediately placed on water use in Loreto. Hmmm...
So, ready to invest a few hundred grand here, or would you rather go somewhere else with water? |
Press releases are THE way to get a good Google ranking (besides paying for it). Why? Because there are many websites that collect press releases and
then link to them. I explained before Google's main method for ranking is citation. Hyperlinks are the citations.
"But if I were to talk to anyone thinking of "investing" in Loreto"
You are, many people read this website. I think only a small percentage post. Maybe an administrator could provide the actual numbers.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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You're right, I don't want one. That was coming out of the old days when I did it all, before hosting services.
Now I gotta get to work. This website is addicting.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 2-9-2004
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I agree that many of the people who are buying a unit in the Villages do not care a whit about the environment. I'm sure many are speculators who
bought at inception when the real estate market was hot all over, and a beach-side condo for $200,000 seemed like a bargain a few years ago, and that
was the end of the analysis. However, as you can see, many units are now for rent and some for sale - at high prices which are over and above what
can be bought elsewhere - without the water problem or incomplete infrastructure of all types (a "vision", a promise). Take a look at the overbuilt
Florida real estate scene now, and the foreclosure market resulting therefrom. Why would it be different in Baja? The economics is the same.
In so many other ways, the Villages project is unprecedented and its overall premise is simply not viable. To clarify, the "Villages" is just that -
planned to be a community of families, living and working together in their small mini-town, eventually self-governed and managed through the HOA. The
management of most condo complexes is daunting enough, with exhorbitant budgets and strict regulating guidelines. Is there a counterpart to HOA
management and accountability in Mexico? There are CCR's for the Villages, but what is the recourse when there is mismanagement, you're not on-site,
there isn't a quorum to convene a meeting to confront the Board (that is the avenue for dealing with condo management). There are annual financial
statements to be prepared, with required Reserve amounts, invested safely, and reviewed by outside accounting firms. Will the standard be the same?
Or will every HOA ill become the norm: broken community area faucets, dirty beaches, littered streets, dying foliage, pothole repair, escalating HOA
dues, no reserves, no accounting.
And that's just one aspect. The LB people keep referring to Civano as one of the feathers in their cap. If you look at Civano, you will see that it
is beginning it's Phase III construction NOW. Civano has approx. 1,200 homes built over the last 9 years. There is an extremely involved and active
HOA and neighborhood organization, that keeps Civano on track. This will not be the case at the Villages. At Civano, the residents work in the
nursery. At Civano, the success of the reduction of water use compared to Tucson (which is their yardstick), is due to almost 100% native, draught
tolerant landscaping. No so in the Villages, where they use only 30% native plants, and the remainder are tropical requiring more water. This is
nonsensical given that LB Co.'s mantra is "sustainable" and the water issue is so serious.
The success of Cancun and Cabo is due to vacation resorts and hotels - not residential units for foreigners. Short-term rental of the Villages units
- like hotel rooms - is not viable. There is no mechanism to manage them as hotel rooms, and that is not happening. And what segment of people are
looking to rent at $2,000+/mo, when you can more for less elsewhere? The snowbirds who traditionally come to Baja, Arizona and Nevada and swell the
populations there, come in their RVs or rent homes for $600-900 in Lake Havasu City and Phoenix where the rents are low. They're retirees from
Minnesota and Wisconsin and cannot afford high rent. So there is limited possible success as far as a rental property.
If you're a buyer wanting to live full time in the Villages, what will you do all day - 365 days a year? Yes, there are many recreation opportunities
in and around Loreto and Baja. Is a totally frivolous life of fun-seeking fulfilling? Really? LB envisions a place where life is more abundant.
What does this mean? If you read the rest of their "Mission" rhetoric, LB is dedicated to build a Village "to demonstrate that humans can play a
regenerative role in the eco-system, while creating positive social change and bring economic prosperity to Central Baja Californa." Personally, I
would rather not live in a demonstration project; any social changes can be addressed within the town of Loreto as needed, and prosperity is relative
and objective. Why do you see so many grinto alcoholics living in Baja?
What makes you happy? Being with your good friends? Having a BBQ in the back yard? Spending time with your grandchildren? Puttering around the
house? Planting a garden? Going fishing in your own boat? Dropping in to see familiar faces in the local bar? Concerts? Do you like privacy,
solitude and quiet? Christmas and Thanksgiving with your friends and family? Diversity or exclusivity in your neighborhood? I can't answer these
questions for you - but you need to envision your own reality - not adopt some specious promise as your path for fulfillment.
And consider that it will be years, if ever, that all the promises and "build out" will come to pass. Civano had the support of Fannie Mae, the City
of Tucson, HUD, and the city invested $3 million on roads, water and sewer projects to make it happen - and Civano is only 1/4 the size of the
Villages. And despite what LB Co. states, Civano was designed and planned by a collaborative effort involving some 17 heavyweight consultants, the
City of Tucson and the expertise of developer Case Enterprises. See: http://www.terrain.org/unsprawl/5/ and http://www.wapa.gov/es/pubs/esb/1999/99Apr/at_civano.htm
Do you see Trust for Sustainable Development mentioned anywhere?
And speaking of the laurels LB Co. claims, Bamberton was indeed planned, but never got built because (1) the project was more than twice the size of
the entire population of Bamberton; (2) the slide show presentation for the people of the town to convince them this was a good idea, depicted photos
of Italian hillside development, when most of the proposed site was flat, and (3) it was just plain ill-conceived and (4) the town essentially didn't
trust the developer. How many of you could dream up some development some place - propose some outrageous construction with any conceivable solution
that technology could offer just to get it built? Anyone could. It doesn't mean that it makes sense and will be successful by any standards,
including the environmental criteria that has come to light in the past 10 years.
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
Why would you want one? That's only 1.5 mb/s, right? |
The reason would be for hosting - T1 is a SYMMETRICAL 1.5mb/s. Both up and down. If you're not hosting stuff, I agree, the payback ain't there.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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wilderone, thanks for the paragraph breaks - and the paragraphs.
But you just shot to hell my plans:
"Is a totally frivolous life of fun-seeking fulfilling? Really?"
I guess not, damn it!
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