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Dave
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Both
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Do you doubt the veracity of the statement? Or are you just saying it shouldn't be that way? |
What you are saying is that threat of punishment makes no difference. I can't belive that.
Were you speaking about casual users, or addicts?
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Ken Bondy
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Dave, yes, based upon my personal experience it is my opinion that the threat of punishment makes no difference, both with casual users and heavy duty
users. That, of course, is a generality and all generalities, including this one, are false. There are probably a few people who have been deterred
from drug use by the threat of punishment, but they are far in the minority.
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | | You might want to check your history book. Many of the drugs "illegal" today were once not only legal but considered a normal part of life...
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One of them is cocaine. Many people don't realize where the "Coca" in "Coca Cola" came from.
carpe diem!
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Making something illegal that is already legal is quite different from making something that is illegal, legal. |
You might want to check your history book. Many of the drugs "illegal" today were once not only legal but considered a normal part of life...
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That's true. Laudanum was common at one time. But what I said still stands. Beisdes what does making cigarettes illegal have anything to do with what
this thread is about?
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Dave
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I was
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
There are probably a few people who have been deterred from drug use by the threat of punishment, but they are far in the minority.
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So were most of my friends. But that was in Oklahoma in the 60's when a joint would get you five years.
Now, tell me that wouldn't deter you, or most people you know. 
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | | You might want to check your history book. Many of the drugs "illegal" today were once not only legal but considered a normal part of life...
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One of them is cocaine. Many people don't realize where the "Coca" in "Coca Cola" came from. |
So how does the fact that at one time drugs that were legal were made illegal support the notion that drugs that are now illegal should be made legal?
Like I said legal to illegal is quite different than illegal to legal.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Making something illegal that is already legal is quite different from making something that is illegal, legal. |
You might want to check your history book. Many of the drugs "illegal" today were once not only legal but considered a normal part of life...
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That's true. Laudanum was common at one time. But what I said still stands. Beisdes what does making cigarettes illegal have anything to do with what
this thread is about? |
I thought Baja Gringo's statement about cigarettes was right on point. He opined, and I agree, that if cigarettes were made illegal most smokers
would not stop smoking. Thus THAT drug behavior would not be significantly affected by whether it is legal or illegal. I think that is the essence
of this thread.
carpe diem!
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BajaGringo
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You are right k-rico. The current drug policy is working. I suspect that once we get 10-20% of the population incarcerated the problem will be well
under control and the narco's will finally be put out of business...
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | | You might want to check your history book. Many of the drugs "illegal" today were once not only legal but considered a normal part of life...
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One of them is cocaine. Many people don't realize where the "Coca" in "Coca Cola" came from. |
So how does the fact that at one time drugs that were legal were made illegal support the notion that drugs that are now illegal should be made legal?
Like I said legal to illegal is quite different than illegal to legal. |
I think the point is that drug use is not significantly affected by whether they are legal or illegal. I think it makes little difference whether the
chicken came before or after the egg.
carpe diem!
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Pescador
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The big challenge about the legality question is that enforcement is a hit or miss affair and therefore is not a very effective behavior modifier. I
went to a John Prine concert this summer and the funny smell was very strong in the whole area of Red Rocks. Those people were obviously not
concernced about getting busted and it seemed to be pretty well understood that unless someone did something extremely stupid that they were not going
to be charged for drug usage. This is almost as bad as our friends who cross the border illegally who only get busted once in awhile. The very same
thing happens with law enforcement who tries to stop drug trafficking, in that people only get caught a small percentage of the time. If there were
some way to bust them each and every time that they crossed over the line into illegality, then things would stop very quickly. This is further
complicated by the fact that they have learned how to effectively sabotage the legal system which is supposed to be controlling the use and
distribution.
Now, in reading the research, the usage of drugs increased in some of the European countries when legalization happened but two things are at play
here. One, they found that some "potheads" moved to that country following legalization, and second is the effect that it is easier to get a more
accurate statistic when things are out in the open.
I have read that the alcohol use and consequent abuse did not really seem to spike after prohibition was repealed.
But, if I give K-rico his due for the sake of argument and accept that use as well as abuse would increase with legalization, I still find it much
more acceptable that the drug cartels and the underground are put out of business literally overnight and that people inner fires of desire be
satisfied with a system that promotes the slow death of strangulation by taxation over the wanton violence and wholesale slaughter that is going on
right now. When prohibition ended in the US, the underground either got on board as legal business men in the manufacture and distribution of
alcohol and the killing and mayhem stopped almost overnight. It is a little hard to justify the killing of over 4,000 people this year, the
destruction of a culture and lifestyle in Mexico.
My favorite saying sums it up with: "If you are riding a dead horse, you gotta have the smarts to get off".
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bajaguy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by soulpatch
If that were my daughter/wife/child at La Mijita I think there would be retribution on the associates of the people who brought death to my house. It
is true guilt by association. I would not give a sh-t if they were not directly involved. Their actions precipitated this type of event.
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There is a lot to be said for taking care of business. There may be an opportunity for a "Paladin" type of person or persons to start cleaning things
up........Once the whacking of a few of these punks by an unknown "avenger" starts, the rest will beat feet for parts unknown.
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Santiago
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SP: I've watched and even contributed (only 3 of us can use this term) while this thread veered off into the drug debate but wondered about what
people were really thinking regarding your question. You're sufficiently cajone-ed, I think, to ask the question bluntly but most of us are too
chicken to answer in a forthright manner. To be honest, it feels a little unseemly to betake of the things we enjoy in Mexico and then question the
honor of the very people we love.
None the less, the question still hangs - when?
PS I've been using the hell out of your ladders.....
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bajadogs
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The reason I don't snort crystal meth is because...
it's illegal.
And the drug war rolls on
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Sharksbaja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadogs
The reason I don't snort crystal meth is because...
it's illegal.
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....and if you did, then what?
Nobody would care but yerself.
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BajaBad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
I do know, for a fact, that legislation has had no impact whatsoever on the usage or non-usage of drugs. |
Point taken, and agreed on by many - the 'legalization' issue is more of a smokescreen in a way. Those of us who support it understand that
legalization would have a direct effect on the 'business' of illegal drug activity, which - I think everyone agrees - is the primary cause in all the
violence going on.
To argue about the 'morality' of legalization and the affect on an individuals usage or choice to use or not to use, is besides the point. In
reality, that discussion is what keeps the drug trade - illegal, and supported by governments and others in positions in power who profit from it -
alive & well.
K-rico wants us to believe that legalizing drugs is going to make all substances available in every mini-mart but that is simply not in any way true
& a bit crazy to state such a thing. Even if small amounts were 'legalized' they would still be stringently controlled & distributed, with
strict age-laws enacted as we have for cigarettes and alcohol. And other 'adult' vices such as porn magazines.
Economics - maybe that is where the disucssion should be, and real reality of our supposed American 'morality' about drugs...
The U.S. has effected two countries who were going to legalize marijuanna (and in the case of Mexico, other illegal drugs for personal use) -- Canada
& Mexico.
Amazingly enough, when we were rallying against Canada to not pass their legalization legislation, economic reports were being quoted about the number
of U.S. tourists who travel to Canada on weekends to party... and spend money.
Our 'moral' stance imposed on Canada had absolutely NOTHING to do with affects of legalization on individual users... iand nothing to do with morality
at all. It was ALL based on economics -- not wanting to lose more U.S. dollars on persons traveling there to spend their money. We simply wanted to
keep our drug users within our own borders... spending money in the U.S.
Same with Mexico - the argument used by our DEA to support our stance - and effective lobbying (was 'Plan Mexico' used as a bargaining tool at that
time... ?) of Vincente to not sign the bill Congress has passed was... huge suprise... because they feared "drug tourism" by U.S. citizens into
Mexico. If we don't want drug users within our borders, you'd think we would have looked the other way.
They feared the loss of U.S. dollars - wanting our drug users to spend in the U.S., not Mexico.
I met some Canadian marijuana growers/workers in Guatemala - they did not want Canada to legalize marijuana... as they knew it would take away their
profits. They didn't care that it meant they kept the risk of being incarcerated for their illegal activity.
BajaBad
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toneart
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The title of this string is:
When will the people of Mexico take back their country? To me, that suggests that The People are the last and only hope. Of course, The People
must regain their lives and their freedom, but how can they stand against the organized cartels and their firepower? Even the military can't do that.
Bless them though. It may come to a bloody revolt in the streets, but I fear the we know who will win and who will lose. I am not saying it is not
possible, but I don't see how.
This thread goes on and on...and wanders. Lets make a list of priorities:
What is the number one acute problem?
Violence! People are getting killed in the most gruesome ways. Man's inhumanity to Man escalates to levels we have not seen since The
Holocaust. It has to stop! Any other consideration has to take a lesser place behind this number one priority.
You can and will prioritize after that, according to your belief systems. I have to say that morality, a just and unshakable virtue that is ingrained
into our American Culture, has to take a back seat.
You are all discussing the morality of legalization as it pertains to drugs. That impedes and stymies any clear vision of what must be done. The
reality is that this is an immoral war in which the real bad guys are the drug dealing cartels. For all the money that the U.S. has thrown at
it, all the posturing by Calderon, and all of the lives that have been lost or impacted, it is only getting more violent.
Creative solutions by thinking outside of the box have to be examined. A few pages back, in this string, I proposed an absurd idea (that got no
comment):
"Hey! Why not give the concession to one cartel and then back them up with the military, defending them against competitors? Get them to agree to a
bi-lateral "hands off" policy in exchange for price fixing and regulation. Dress em up in suits like all the "respectable" crooks in government and
corporations. That way the underground economy wouldn't collapse." Of course this is absurd! But taken from it are parallels to our days of
Prohibition. It also suggests that the underground economy is a leading factor in why this reprehensible drug trade is allowed to exist and grow, with
a wink and a nod. Cynical? Perhaps.
Stopping users and addicts won't work. A fence won't work. Immigration laws won't work. Depending on Mexican Police and officials in high and low
places won't work.
Legalization could work.The profit margin must be taken out. Sure, the bad guys will still exist and look for other illegal ways to make a living, but
then they can be divided and conquered;picked off as emasculated splinter groups. A moral stance against it wrongly rules this out as a possibility.
Forget about the ruined lives of druggies and their families. You can't do anything about that. Praying won't work. You have to be pragmatic and
smart; smarter than the bad guys, because their advances and determination and use of violence trumps any kind of morality, money and weaponry.
Besides, the global money has disappeared down the rabbit hole. Gone!
So, are we going to stand with our Mexican brothers and sisters as they get slaughtered in a bloody street revolt. I think not! Maybe a few North
American freedom fighters will, but the rest of us? Come on. What are you thinking. Where is your morality? When your burros are on the line it kinda
falls away, doesn't it? 
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Dave
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Interesting
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
So, are we going to stand with our Mexican brothers and sisters as they get slaughtered in a bloody street revolt. I think not! Maybe a few North
American freedom fighters will, but the rest of us? Come on. What are you thinking. Where is your morality? When your burros are on the line it kinda
falls away, doesn't it? |
What would be U.S. policy if revolution came?
We would have to get involved, but how?
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Sharksbaja
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| Quote: |
What would be U.S. policy if revolution came?
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Gee, I thought we just had one! We'll have to wait and see.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
So, are we going to stand with our Mexican brothers and sisters as they get slaughtered in a bloody street revolt. I think not! Maybe a few North
American freedom fighters will, but the rest of us? Come on. What are you thinking. Where is your morality? When your burros are on the line it kinda
falls away, doesn't it? |
What would be U.S. policy if revolution came?
We would have to get involved, but how? |
Well Dave,
I sure don't have the answers. The revolution I was thinking of would be against the cartels in the peoples' attempt to take back their country. Now
that you have asked the question, it sure could expand and go against the government. Let me be clear that I am NOT advocating a revolution in any
form!
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Sharksbaja
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See how easy it is....
[Edited on 11-22-2008 by Sharksbaja]
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