| Pages:
1
..
3
4
5
6
7
8 |
gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Try ordering fuel at 4am and you will always get the best price/liter because the temperature is coolest.
|
|
|
laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: sharing
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Try ordering fuel at 4am and you will always get the best price/liter because the temperature is coolest. |
depends if it is an underground tank or not. Or if it was just delivered. the ground temperture several feet below ground does
not change much. and the expansion and contraction of a liquid in small amounts like 30 gallons should be relatively small. on a tanker truck
yes it makes a difference.
|
|
|
vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
that was then and this is now...the answer...computers
the myth that you get screwed when you buy gas just isn't true any more |
They still manage to put 23 liters in our 5 gallon/19 liter cans here in Loreto. New pumps or not. Except for one station, which ,of course, does a
landslide business.
|
|
|
Hook
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9009
Registered: 3-13-2004
Location: Sonora
Member Is Offline
Mood: Inquisitive
|
|
I wont name names, but there is a family that runs a Pemex fuel outlet over here that claims they were told they would be fined by Pemex if they didnt
futz with their pumps and make them cheat customers the way the other Pemexs in town do.
They refused. No fine that I have heard of.
We've been all over this theory about the temperature of the fuel accounting for the difference in measured values. I really cant believe a sizable
tank under several feet of dirt and concrete (and surrounded by cool dirt) would be affected much by the ambient air temp from above.
"Stretched" plastic container may account for SOME of the discrepany. But not to the degree that people report. Like 10-15% in favor of the station.
|
|
|
laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: sharing
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Hook
I wont name names, but there is a family that runs a Pemex fuel outlet over here that claims they were told they would be fined by Pemex if they didnt
futz with their pumps and make them cheat customers the way the other Pemexs in town do.
They refused. No fine that I have heard of.
We've been all over this theory about the temperature of the fuel accounting for the difference in measured values. I really cant believe a sizable
tank under several feet of dirt and concrete (and surrounded by cool dirt) would be affected much by the ambient air temp from above.
"Stretched" plastic container may account for SOME of the discrepany. But not to the degree that people report. Like 10-15% in favor of the station.
|
here is a document for contraction expansion co-efficient os gasoline.
http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/resources/DPReportHotFuelUSA...
on a 10,000 gallon delivery that left at 60 degrees from the storage tanks (I doubt the above ground storage tanks in LaPaz ever drops to 60 degrees.
) and was delivered at 90 degrees is a 207 gallon differential. so take 1 gallon this would be 0.02 gallons.
Note, when getting your fuel from a gas station tank as being pumped it is not going to change its temperature for a long time depending on
conditions like how much you bought so hours. it certainly did not change 30 degrees as it left the nozzle to a container.
[Edited on 12-2-2011 by laventana]
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by laventana
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Try ordering fuel at 4am and you will always get the best price/liter because the temperature is coolest. |
depends if it is an underground tank or not. Or if it was just delivered. the ground temperture several feet below ground does
not change much. and the expansion and contraction of a liquid in small amounts like 30 gallons should be relatively small. on a tanker truck
yes it makes a difference. |
Exactly. Minimal. Sometimes you gain .02 liters and sometimes you lose .02 liters due to temperature correction. It all balances out. If we were
doing astrophysics this could be a problem, but we're not.
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
that was then and this is now...the answer...computers
the myth that you get screwed when you buy gas just isn't true any more |
They still manage to put 23 liters in our 5 gallon/19 liter cans here in Loreto. New pumps or not. Except for one station, which ,of course, does a
landslide business. |
Report them. They are under dispensing. May be intentional or may be pumps "out of calibration".  
|
|
|
Hook
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9009
Registered: 3-13-2004
Location: Sonora
Member Is Offline
Mood: Inquisitive
|
|
So, Ateo, then you must conclude that the PUMPS account for the discrepancy that so many people report, correct?
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Temperature corrects itself. In your tank, in the UST below ground, and at the tank farm/bulk processing plant. I'm over this. U2U me if you have
more concerns. Actually - don't. We're wasting time. Your #1 ripoff in Baja is the cops, fancy rentals, other gringos, and Mama Espinozas.
If you want to save gas don't step on the peddle so hard. Let's start a thread on that.  
Pemex pumps may still be calibrated wrong. I won't deny that.
|
|
|
gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
This is what gets me about mexico, if you see a crime you must stop it, report it as a witness and victim and name the perp. Takes a few minutes.
Simple. You must stand up to crime. When you do it will end. It requires that you understand the price and you should call multiple enforcement people
and prosecute the crime. Write down the facts. Take photos. It's pretty simple and fast when you do it, perhaps the crime may go unpunished but the
message is clear. When they rob you, it's 10-20 percent or more per person!@#$% every moment, say no. It's pretty simple. Society puts up with the
amount of crime it's willing to put up with.
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
that was then and this is now...the answer...computers
the myth that you get screwed when you buy gas just isn't true any more |
YES.
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Hook
So, Ateo, then you must conclude that the PUMPS account for the discrepancy that so many people report, correct? |
Yes Hook. The pumps, if not calibrated correctly, could lead to the consumer getting ripped off - or the owner. If an owner is doing this, he's an
buttcrack. Report him.
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | We've been all over this theory about the temperature of the fuel accounting for the difference in measured values. I really cant believe a sizable
tank under several feet of dirt and concrete (and surrounded by cool dirt) would be affected much by the ambient air temp from above.
"Stretched" plastic container may account for SOME of the discrepany. But not to the degree that people report. Like 10-15% in favor of the station.
|
Yeah, these Undergound Storage Tanks (UST) range from 10k gallons to 25 gallons in most locations. These fiberglass reinforced plastic tanks expand
and contract very little. UST's are roughly 15-20' below ground and minimally affected by temperature. This is their evolved design. Used to have
all steel tanks, and all leaked. In 2001, there were 21,000 cleanup sites in the USA. 250,000 tanks had leaked at that point.
If everyone would like I can get a printout of fuel levels, temperature and EVEN water in tanks, next week when back to work.
Bottom line is - you fueling up are not getting ripped off - except for the costs of these previously leaking tanks and what's passed on to you as a
consumer. If you want something to worry about then worry about calibration, but even that is in justifiable limits of "being alive" and the gains
and losses one is exposed to. I guarantee you've all benefited from pumps dispensing in your favor.
Just my opinion.
|
|
|
Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Full Time Residents
|
|
alot of times the error is the consumer...
people think the red container that holds the gas
needs to be filled to the top
that just isn't true
if you have a 5 gallon container
you have a couple of inches "play"
for expansion and "bumping"
in a truck...the gas tank can be located far from the filler tube
that means a stock 20 gallon tank can hold 23 gallons...sometimes
in the usa...the pump shuts off the gas at the handle
in baja it shuts off at the pump or inside the "box"
so you can fill the tank till it over-flows
try that in california
it won't happen...well...very often
as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue...
|
|
|
laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: sharing
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
alot of times the error is the consumer...
people think the red container that holds the gas
needs to be filled to the top
that just isn't true
if you have a 5 gallon container
you have a couple of inches "play"
for expansion and "bumping"
in a truck...the gas tank can be located far from the filler tube
that means a stock 20 gallon tank can hold 23 gallons...sometimes
in the usa...the pump shuts off the gas at the handle
in baja it shuts off at the pump or inside the "box"
so you can fill the tank till it over-flows
try that in california
it won't happen...well...very often
as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue... |
again, I have been to a station and took the pump from their hand. On a motorcycle this is very common to do... Then clicked it and barely a
teaspoon came out and it showed 3 liters. they tried arguing with me but I did not back down finally asking for the police to come before they
would back down and saw how they reset a pump. Either you just do not believe me or only you think you know all things in baja. It is no myth...
Have two tanks and fill one at a time,,,, your where the tanks location are speculation and where the fuel flows is very imaginative and reasonable...
but easily compensated for to a person who is a mechanic/engineer. Hey what do I know I just bought another old truck and pulled both fuel tanks
to replace the pick-ups in them by myself. I obviously do have a mechanical ability and knowledge of the gas tank system do it. And yes, in
the usa I can fill a tank to the top very easily... If you ever owned a motorcycle you learn quickly how to do it or you only get 2/3 of a tank
fill up. Never found a pump in any place in the USA I could not do it. Have driven my motorcycle in nearly every state.
One other way is to do some math statistical correlation. It is very simple for those of us who have 2 tanks. when driving down I do a cost
per mile calculation after filling. grant it, poor gas can be an issue in this as well as other conditions, but people it generally confirms.
Have listed even places in the USA were caught that re-chip a meter and were convicted. Maybe you believe only in the USA do they cheat.
Even with a re-chipped ones the odds are the programmer does not cheat on less than 5 gallons unless it is like the gas station I went to that does it
manually via a button. And if you think about it at the station I caught, it was known that for some reason they always wanted to pump and reset
the pump again to pump more. It is obvious to me why they would do this with the way I saw how their pump worked. Is it to you is the question,
or should I explain.
[Edited on 12-3-2011 by laventana]
[Edited on 12-3-2011 by laventana]
[Edited on 12-3-2011 by laventana]
[Edited on 12-3-2011 by laventana]
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
alot of times the error is the consumer...
as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue... |
Completely agree.
As someone who does compliance inspections 5 days a week at gas stations, I can tell you the consumer is generally wrong 9 times out of 10. I observe
some crazy stuff at gas stations, mostly all from customers who think they're getting ripped off, or from those that don't know how to use the pump.
It can be very funny sometimes and let it be known, if you come in yelling at the cashier (THEY ARE human beings with kids and family - not robots for
you to take out your aggressions on) that your pump won't start only to be shown you haven't yet entered your zip code, pressed the 87 octane button
or whatever, people laugh at you behind you back the second you go back out to pump your gas, including other customers.
|
|
|
laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: sharing
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
alot of times the error is the consumer...
as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue... |
Completely agree.
As someone who does compliance inspections 5 days a week at gas stations, I can tell you the consumer is generally wrong 9 times out of 10. I observe
some crazy stuff at gas stations, mostly all from customers who think they're getting ripped off, or from those that don't know how to use the pump.
It can be very funny sometimes and let it be known, if you come in yelling at the cashier (THEY ARE human beings with kids and family - not robots for
you to take out your aggressions on) that your pump won't start only to be shown you haven't yet entered your zip code, pressed the 87 octane button
or whatever, people laugh at you behind you back the second you go back out to pump your gas, including other customers. |
do you realize being cheated 1 place out of 10 places is humongous for the USA...... I would have hoped for 1 in 1000... if the ATMs made mistakes
like this the finacial would would crumble.
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
If everyone would like I can get a printout of fuel levels, temperature and EVEN water in tanks, next week when back to work. |
You have that information for the stations in Baja that we've been discussing? Now THAT could be helpful. |
I don't have that info. Sorry I haven't been helpful. Go into your local Pemex and ask them for a printout from their Veeder Root.
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by laventana
| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
alot of times the error is the consumer...
as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue... |
Completely agree.
As someone who does compliance inspections 5 days a week at gas stations, I can tell you the consumer is generally wrong 9 times out of 10. I observe
some crazy stuff at gas stations, mostly all from customers who think they're getting ripped off, or from those that don't know how to use the pump.
It can be very funny sometimes and let it be known, if you come in yelling at the cashier (THEY ARE human beings with kids and family - not robots for
you to take out your aggressions on) that your pump won't start only to be shown you haven't yet entered your zip code, pressed the 87 octane button
or whatever, people laugh at you behind you back the second you go back out to pump your gas, including other customers. |
do you realize being cheated 1 place out of 10 places is humongous for the USA...... I would have hoped for 1 in 1000... if the ATMs made mistakes
like this the finacial would would crumble. |
My 9 out of 10 was in regards to customers being idiots. The 1 out of 10 would be the cashier was wrong.
As far as getting deliberately cheated I'd say your # of 1 in 1000 stations is more like it, in the USA. I've never heard of anyone deliberately
tampering with pumps, except your article from 15 years ago, and those dudes were caught.
|
|
|
laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: sharing
|
|
Originally posted by ateo | Quote: | | My 9 out of 10 was in regards to customers being idiots. The 1 out of 10 would be the cashier was wrong. As far as getting deliberately cheated I'd
say your # of 1 in 1000 stations is more like it, in the USA. I've never heard of anyone deliberately tampering with pumps, except your article from
15 years ago, and those dudes were caught. |
By the way atms are more like 6-8 sigma. 1 in 1000 would also cause the collapse of the banking ATMs.
again we have you on record with a second one I listed that was audited and the owner only made a extra 300K in just that year. And we can maybe
guess you are claiming all are audited by people like you.
can you tell me the government agencies that can "verify" chips in pumps and how often these chips are tested? Do you know how to test a chip?
How many people work in this agency to protect consumers and exactly how many pumps they have to check.
do you think you have a chance to stop me, a non insider who has never opened a pump in his entire life.... from putting in chips or other ways in
gas pumps and you could catch me with your present ways? If you are willing to bet some serious money I am willing to do it. I love non-tech
people who are so clueless to statistics and electronics. This will be an easy million.... I suggest you put up... and make my day...
[Edited on 12-4-2011 by laventana]
[Edited on 12-4-2011 by laventana]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
..
3
4
5
6
7
8 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
