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Cliffy
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RFClark- You are mostly correct about the Boeing 7 series of jets- multiple backups for the electrical side of things.
4 eng and 3 engine Boeings had alternating current (AC) generators and the airplane was an AC airplane unlike our cars that are DC powered.
Each generator could power the most important electrical items by itself if needed. 1 generator "could" allow the airplane to land with everything
necessary without compromising safety.
There were numerous times that Boeings had electrical "issues" where all the backups allowed the flight to complete without problems.
In fact there are check lists and maint procedures that allow certain items to be inoperative for even passenger flights. Such was the issue on the
727 (not 737) that you noted that went into Santa Monica Bay. That crash brought about a very important revision to the safety rules that stands even
to today in ALL jet transport aircraft- THE 3RD ARTIFICIAL HORIZON INSTRUMENT.
Back then (1969, I was working at LA that night) a United Airlines 727 was dispatched with one of the 3 generators inoperative, Quite legal even today
on 3 or more engine airplanes,
After takeoff one of the 2 running generators quit and all the load from all the electrical items on the airplane were thrown on to the one remaining
generator. That big load was more than the one generator was capable of handling.
In this case the procedure was for the Flight Engineer to "down load" the electrical draw by turning off the galley power that went to the ovens
cooking the inflight meals.
Instead of turning off the "Galley Power" he turned off the switch that controlled the ship's battery. Once the battery was turned off ALL electrical
power in the airplane was turned off and the c-ckpit went dark and all the flight instruments died. It was a dark and stormy night with no outside
visibility.
He hit the wrong switch because at that time the Battery switch and the Galley power switches were located right next to each other and shaped the
same way.
With no electrical power to power both of the pilot's instruments they lost control and crashed into the bay. So even with all the AC backups they
still had a deadly problem'
After the NTSB discovered what actually caused the problem the FAA mandated that ALL jet aircraft had to have a 3rd attitude indicator on the front
panel independently powered not by any other power system in the airplane (typically powered by a separate, independent battery that can not be
turned off.
Another layer of backups!
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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tomieharder
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It would have been smarter to just change the battery switch so that the battery cannot be disconnected if the landing gear squat switch is open
(which means the airplane is flying). Since you need battery voltage to excite the alternators anyway, it makes little sense to turn them off. The
batteries are fused in case they short out or overload.
Commercial aircraft use 400Hz to save weight.
[Edited on 5-29-2023 by tomieharder]
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Cliffy
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Quote: Originally posted by tomieharder  | It would have been smarter to just change the battery switch so that the battery cannot be disconnected if the landing gear squat switch is open
(which means the airplane is flying). Since you need battery voltage to excite the alternators anyway, it makes little sense to turn them off. The
batteries are fused in case they short out or overload.
Commercial aircraft use 400Hz to save weight.
[Edited on 5-29-2023 by tomieharder] |
You are correct IF they had thought of that possibility in the design BUT the original design was a carry over in many ways from WWII and earlier
Boeings (B-17, B-29, etc)
Part of the "fix" was to move the Galley power switch away from the battery switch to avoid the issue all together.
The flight engineer was also new to the job and caught in one of the most demanding "emergencies" that can happen in a jet aircraft "Loss of all AC
power" in IMC conditions, in the era before the 3rd gyro.
Yes, 400 cycle power does have advantages in power distribution due to lighter wiring being able to be used in place of DC power.
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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willardguy
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I blame Fishbuck!  just kidding Mike
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JDCanuck
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| Quote: Originally posted by SFandH | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | RFClark: I am constantly amazed by what we don't see coming from the Engineers and suddenly every preconception gets thrown out. The Ford lightning
power to house concept combined with residential power walls suddenly flipped the need for massive grid changes on its head, allowing for individual
storage backups in every neighbourhood once it is broadly rolled out.
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I don't understand. Are you saying using your BEV to power your house when the grid is down? If so, how does that change the grid requirements and
design? |
Yes, SFandH. Exactly that plus they can feed the grid demand, if there is a huge power demand as in the case of a system breaker trip from one of the
major suppliers, the multiple installed home batteries or vehicle to home EV's can pick up the increased demand spread out across the grid. At
present, the utilities have to install huge battery systems to handle the demand fluctuations.
When I last worked in the Power generating plants decades ago, we had a west coast grid that spread from Saskatchewan in Canada, through our two
western provinces, down the west coast through California and to Four Corners New Mexico. When a large generating unit in California or a system
transmission breaker tripped due to excess power demand flow, every remaining unit online would suck down in speed for about 1 1/2 seconds as they
attempted to maintain grid frequency. This is when the additional transmission breakers would start tripping and leading to full blackouts across the
grid. Having a large number of home battery systems tied in and supplying power in milliseconds would stabilize the cascading trips you would
otherwise see.
[Edited on 5-29-2023 by JDCanuck]
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SFandH
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | | Quote: Originally posted by SFandH | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | RFClark: I am constantly amazed by what we don't see coming from the Engineers and suddenly every preconception gets thrown out. The Ford lightning
power to house concept combined with residential power walls suddenly flipped the need for massive grid changes on its head, allowing for individual
storage backups in every neighbourhood once it is broadly rolled out.
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I don't understand. Are you saying using your BEV to power your house when the grid is down? If so, how does that change the grid requirements and
design? |
Yes, SFandH. Exactly that plus they can feed the grid demand, if there is a huge power demand as in the case of a system breaker trip from one of the
major suppliers, the multiple installed home batteries or vehicle to home EV's can pick up the increased demand spread out across the grid.
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So, if the utility needs some juice you may find your house/car batteries discharged so your neighbor who doesn't have batteries can keep running his
AC?
Also, I guess the power company would need to reimburse the consumers for the power draw.
Hmmmm.
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JDCanuck
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Thats why the utilities essentially pay you to recharge them in off-peak hours and charge you more to draw from the grid in peak hours. If you don't
want them tied to the grid, you can always put a timer on them. I suspect most won't and will want them online as backups for their own sake.
They have you foot the costs upfront to provide grid stability rather than install their massive batteries instead. You get the payback at extremely
cheap power costs over the years your battery installation operates.
2.5c per kwh instead of 12c is a pretty big incentive to get you onboard
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RFClark
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Mood: Delighted with 2024 and looking forward to 2025
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Cliffy,
My bad it was a 727 three holler. I was in FE school at the time and our instructor was a life FE. He knew a lot of people. The 727 that had the
electrical buss fire had just happened. It was his opinion that the SM Bay crash was caused by the same problem and possibly one other as well. My
recollection is that there was an big AD note on the subject of defective wiring harnesses.
My point was having multiple backups with a design feature that can take all of them out at once is deadly.
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RFClark
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Mood: Delighted with 2024 and looking forward to 2025
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SF&H,
Here is how it works.
https://electrek.co/2021/07/16/tesla-launches-virtual-power-...
People are making money doing this.
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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 12-19-2013
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RFClark I agree
We've had 2 crashes with hydraulic failures for the same reason.
A 727 and a DC-10 crashed because all the hydraulic systems for the flight controls (designed with 2 or 3 systems for redundancy) were cut in half
because they all transited one area together and that area was impacted by a midair in the case of a 727 and a #2 engine explosion in the case of
the DC-10
All hydraulics lost- ALL flight controls lost.
Returning to a BAJA subject- even with well planned backups, s*&t happens. Unplanned consequences occur. Nothing is 100%
I'm wondering what the payback time is with the new power walls factoring in the life replacement costs
What is the replacement time (cycles) and will that system be around when replacement time comes or will an entire new system be needed because the
old one is obsolete for market?
If one CAN live off grid (and it can be done with certain sacrifices) then well and good. Go for it!
But its not for everyone and it shouldn't be mandated just for the feel good aspect.
200 year ago we lived by candles and water buckets
Civilization advanced to the age of electrical power and indoor plumbing and air conditioning
Now it seems some want all to return to 200 years ago.
The sky is not falling
Some people need to read opinions and documentation by well degreed dissenters to the current climate mantra and not just listen to talking heads on
TV. People with just a good of educational and research backgrounds as those proposing doom in the next decade.
The science is not settled by any means.
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1667
Registered: 2-22-2020
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Returning to a BAJA subject- even with well planned backups, s*&t happens. Unplanned consequences occur. Nothing is 100%
Cliffy, this is why the utilities keep redesigning their grids to reduce the outages over the decades since we became reliant on electricity in rural
areas as well as cities. Our biggest disruptions where we live are related to ice laden major transmission lines suddenly collapsing in winter, or
wildfires taking out those same lines due to inadequate spacing and clearing of surrounding brush. In Baja, it seems to be the major hurricane storms
that are the culprits, and neighbours relying on CFE are quite used to being without power for up to 2 weeks at a time every year when the storms hit.
I have seen stories of people in remote areas being trapped without access to power, food, or water for those periods pretty commonly.
Pretty hard to prepare fully for all the future possibilities, but once again the more localized your backup power supplies are, the better protected
we all are.
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18376
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy |
200 year ago we lived by candles and water buckets
Civilization advanced to the age of electrical power and indoor plumbing and air conditioning
Now it seems some want all to return to 200 years ago.
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Seems to me that you people buying generators to be prepared for infrequent/rare power outages are being silly.
How is an rare 1-hr or 3-day power outage returning to 1823 living conditions?
Was 1823 horrible living conditions?
Questions for you prepers:
Got MREs in your bunker? Is you pantry stocked with canned goods?
How are you preparing for global warming? (Bigger and more frequent hurricanes, higher summer temps, colder/wetter winters)
Do you have enough guns, ammunition and body armor/helmets to fight off hordes or zombies for 6 months of anarchy and social distortion?
What is more important for surviving the siege, a backup generator or 100,000 rounds of ammo?
Which is better location to hunker down and try to survive the post-apocalypse (or rapture), Mexico or USA?
[Edited on 5-30-2023 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1667
Registered: 2-22-2020
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| Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 |
Questions for you prepers:
Do you have enough guns, ammunition and body armor/helmets to fight off hordes or zombies for 6 months of anarchy and social distortion?
What is more important for surviving the siege, a backup generator or 100,000 rounds of ammo?
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Well, it might be a bit difficult obtaining 100,000 rounds of ammo where I live as the criminal element seems to have a lock on that market, whereas
that backup generator to overcome long periods of power outages is quite cheap and readily accessible. Are you really storing that much ammo for such
an improbable event? Is your underground bomb shelter also stocked sufficiently for what you expect the future to bring?
This seems to be a more immediate concern to us at present, and has impacts we would all be wise to consider as we travel back and forth. :
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-05-25/mexico...
[Edited on 5-30-2023 by JDCanuck]
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RFClark
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Posts: 2462
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Mood: Delighted with 2024 and looking forward to 2025
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Goat,
Got fire extinguishers?
“The last of us” proved guns are ineffective against Zombies. High current solar electric fences and fuel air bombs work better (what was it
Frances Ford said about Napalm in the morning?)
MREs are so 60’s and only last a couple of years. Freeze dried food packed in nitrogen gas is good for 25 years. Local grown vegetables and eggs.
(36 free range large brown eggs $133 pesos at COSTCO Cabo) Zombies don’t do well crossing deserts.
1823, how do you feel about Cholera, Typhus, Typhoid Fever and Yellow fever? 1823 was their year! How do you feel about dentistry w/o anesthesia?
Surgery without anesthesia? (Not until 1846!)
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1667
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Looking to be yet another challenging summer both in CA and Baja. Predictions on Pacific Coast of Baja are for a stronger than average storm season.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/2023-hurricane-...
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/facing-sweltering-summers-...
[Edited on 5-31-2023 by JDCanuck]
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RFClark
Super Nomad
Posts: 2462
Registered: 8-27-2015
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Mood: Delighted with 2024 and looking forward to 2025
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JD,
The temperatures in the Todos Santos area are still running in the 60s or low 70s during the day and low 60s at night, lots of cold water offshore.
[Edited on 6-2-2023 by RFClark]
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
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RFC: I was just thinking about your place and the very impressive hurricane shutters you had designed and built locally. I would have loved to have
done the same, but due to not having your contacts we opted for the laminated hurricane windows instead, which should have been completed this week.
Hope this proves adequate for our purposes when worst of the storm season hits this fall and the construction waste expected around us picks up.
And yes, we noted the temps up where we were were running substantially cooler than normal right up to when I flew out a couple weeks back, I assume
affected by the colder than normal offshore ocean temps. I had been running heat pumps on heating mode ever since January, not a bit of cooling
required. It's actually been warmer up here on the west coast of Canada lately in late afternoons.
[Edited on 6-2-2023 by JDCanuck]
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RFClark
Super Nomad
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JD,
All you need at ground level are steel frames and 5/8” plywood. We’re doing those now. Pictures soon.
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18376
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Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: Originally posted by RFClark | JD,
The temperatures in the Todos Santos area are still running in the 60s or low 70s during the day and low 60s at night, lots of cold water offshore.
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clarkles:
you need to plant something to cover all that bare soil and brown weedy stuff. plant some low water natives, you can even find some things like
mesquite, palo verde, etc, that can provide filtered shade.
vegetation is a good carbon sink, much of that carbon sink is invisible fungal below grade
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1667
Registered: 2-22-2020
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| Quote: Originally posted by RFClark | JD,
All you need at ground level are steel frames and 5/8” plywood. We’re doing those now. Pictures soon. |
Yes, we costed that and also the roll down metal shutters out as alternatives. Our neighbours for the most part put up temporary plywood sheet covers
each time they get a storm warning, but we will be stuck up here so needed something in place throughout. And of course, we have zero control over
debris from construction projects surrounding us.
[Edited on 6-2-2023 by JDCanuck]
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