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oldhippie
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flyfishingPam,
I've changed my signature to a statement you made and Lencho applauded in a fantastic manner. I hope you don't mind. If so let me know.
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Cypress
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This whole Loreto thing is beginning to sound like one big scam. Is the Mexican govt. helping bankroll the project?
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oldhippie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
This whole Loreto thing is beginning to sound like one big scam. Is the Mexican govt. helping bankroll the project? |
I don't know, but there have been allegations that Loreto Bay has made some Mexican officials very wealthy. The Mexican Government via FONATUR has
been and is developing tourism as a way of raising money and the standard of living of citizens. I have no problem with that as long as it is done in
a reasonable manner. In addition I would be less likely to get involved even if it was done in an unreasonable manner if it were Mexican corporations
(owned by Mexicans) doing the development since I'm not a citizen.
But Loreto Bay is a foreign owned company developing essentially a city for foreigners to live in on the Mexican coastline which is expressly
forbidden by the Mexican Constitution.
They are using a loophole, created for foreign INDIVIDUALS to invest in coastal property, to build a city for foreigners to live in. It's totally
against the spirit and intent of the law.
[Edited on 8-10-2007 by oldhippie]
[Edited on 8-10-2007 by oldhippie]
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oldhippie
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Seems like a foreign invasion to me. There may not be blood spilled but the sociological implications are similar. I haven't really developed this
line of thinking yet but your question is helping me. There are environmental, sociological, and economical implications to consider. All are related
and interact.
I need a formula.
In fact I think I may know of one. It's in a book titled "World Dynamics" by Jay Forrester (I think). I read it once maybe 30 years ago and didn't
understand it.
[Edited on 8-10-2007 by oldhippie]
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wilderone
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Just one more comment. LB Co. chooses the definition of sustainable development from the United Nations' Brundtland Commission (among many), as
"Meeting the needs of the present generation without sacrificing the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." They toss that out there
expecting the reader to embrace the idea that the LV Villages is compliant with that concept - ethereal as it is.
The Villages project clearly does not comport with that definition, since (1) the present generation of Loreto citizens does not NEED a half-empty
town of idle foreigners in its midst; (2) it threatens the scarce water supply for everyone living in the region now and forever; (3) the present
generation includes the new immigrants who have come to build it and their needs are not met in that they there is insufficient housing for them, so
much so that they cannot live with their families under one roof, and LB Co. is not taking responsibility for this situation, but passing it on to the
contractors, and ignored the lack of housing in the first place; the needs of the present generation which includes the new immigrants are presently
met by contracted for cafeteria meals - which certainly does not enable them to meet their own needs in the future (so the most basic shelter and food
needs are not met); and the future housing of these new immigrants will only tax the local infrastructure and resources more and more.
The ability of future generations to meet their own needs is an entirely spurious prong to the definition because nobody has ever been able to tell
the future. However, in consideration of global warming trends, the balance of the ecology in the Nopolo region (arid desert, undisturbed coastline),
and historical development models and demographics in the US and Mexico, why would a developer threaten that balance and the health of the gulf waters
which currently provides the basis for economic stability in the region for current and future generations with: pesticides for the nursery and
orchard; fertilizers for the nursery, orchard and golf courses; creating an estuary that flows into the gulf which may or may not be a healthy
ecocystem, but which in the process of creating it, has wiped off the face of the earth the important flora and protective dunes; creating
inflow/outtake pipes into the gulf; discharging desal chemicals into the gulf; introduced an increased amount of sewage, trash and other human-caused
pollutants into the region; planning to use up the local resources for producing compressed earth bricks for the next 10 years or more; destroying and
disturbing 3 miles of coastline and all that it contains as viable habitat for sensitive desert wildlife; introducing non-native plant species into
the area requiring much more water than what was originally native and naturally evolved necessitating water in the future as well; plant a one-acre
orchard requiring yet more water; and all without known ecological affects in the future.
LB Co. can attempt to project the benefits of they hope to do, but the reality speaks for itself. Anybody can talk.
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MrBillM
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Anybody Can Talk.
But Money speaks loudest. None of the voices here will be loud enough. Whatever occurs will happen regardless of what any of us think, say or do.
Relax and watch the picture develop.
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oldhippie
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I really enjoy reading what you all write, very thought provoking.
MrBill is right and, perhaps, wrong. Did you see that I qualified my statement MrBill? I was taught not to do that, but I want to be careful not to
argue in a confrontational manner. I'm instinctively so.
"Whatever occurs will happen regardless of what any of us think, say or do. "
I disagree 100%. What occurs is precisely caused by what "we" think, say, and do.
Larry, thanks for broadening the restricted zone issue.
wilderone asks: "why would a developer threaten that balance and the health of the gulf waters which currently provides the basis for economic
stability in the region for current and future generations"
quick money is the answer
But you have articulated the concept of greenwashing exceedingly well which is what originally upped the ante and got me, well, obsessed with Loreto
development.
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MrBillM
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No Desire to be Confrontational
At least in this case.
BUT !
What I was trying to say is that a project like this is so big that whatever decides its fate won't be what a handful of foreign residents think, say
or do. The size and Dollar values are simply too high and we have too much past history of development in Mexico, some of it VERY recent, to guide
us. I know that we feel obligated to bring action to our beliefs so that we feel we've done our best. However, we sometimes have unrealistic
expectations of what that action will accomplish.
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oldhippie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
But Money speaks loudest. None of the voices here will be loud enough. Whatever occurs will happen regardless of what any of us think, say or do.
Relax and watch the picture develop. |
In my last post I took your last statement out of its context. Conservationists world wide have been able, on occasion, to prevail over big money.
That gives me hope.
I know how to speak loudly because I helped ?? invent the Internet (sorry). I just happened to be in the right place at the right time working on its
original purpose. I know everything Internet.
But I may relax and watch the picture develop. The availability of money for discretionary spending is the key, and there seems to be a lot of
volatility due to uncertainty in that arena. Maybe I won't have to speak loudly.
[Edited on 8-10-2007 by oldhippie]
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flyfishinPam
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
Just one more comment. LB Co. chooses the definition of sustainable development from the United Nations' Brundtland Commission (among many), as
"Meeting the needs of the present generation without sacrificing the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." They toss that out there
expecting the reader to embrace the idea that the LV Villages is compliant with that concept - ethereal as it is. |
can the United Nations Brundtland Commission be notified of this development thatīs taking place and using their standards to market a product that
defies these standards?
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Cypress
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We all argue, agree, discuss,etc and they remain silent while counting their money. 
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Al G
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
We all argue, agree, discuss,etc and they remain silent while counting their money. |
OOPS...Page seven...and I have not read a word of this thread....it is the first time you have made sence to me.....Damn gotta stop drinking so many
Pacifico's...
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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oldhippie
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There is debate about foreign development in the restricted zone.
"Hundreds of complaints exist about the surrender of coastal zones to foreigners, and the government has not defended either the national patrimony or
indigenous people, who are not allowed to sell their arts and crafts even after being stripped of their lands," said Senator Heladio Elias Ramirez
Lopez, president of the rural legislators' group.
http://www.mexidata.info/id1471.html
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oldhippie
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Back to desalination. I've found time to do a little reading and thought I'd share some links. It's pretty dry scientific stuff. I've posted these
links before, thinking that I would eventually find more information. This is about it though.
"Very little information is available on the impacts of desalination plants on the marine environment."
"Desalination plants require significant amounts of energy for their operation. For example, the Santa Barbara RO desalination plant was using about
6,600 kWh of electricity per acre-foot of water produced before the plant shut down operations."
"Discharge constituents monitored include: dissolved oxygen, copper, iron, nickel, pH, temperature, total chlorine residual, toxicity concentration in
marine organisms (bioassays), arsenic, cadmium, lead, hexavalient chromium, mercury, silver, zinc, cyanide, suspended solids, particulates, grease and
oil, settleable solids, flow rate, and turbidity."
http://www.coastal.ca.gov/desalrpt/dchap3.html
For Loreto:
These experts concluded that disposing of the waste in the Sea of Cortez should not be done.
"Brine disposal reduction and conjunctive disposal using deep injection wells and land disposal."
http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/desalination/009_co...
[Edited on 8-14-2007 by oldhippie]
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woody with a view
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| Quote: |
"Discharge constituents monitored include: dissolved oxygen, copper, iron, nickel, pH, temperature, total chlorine residual, toxicity concentration in
marine organisms (bioassays), arsenic, cadmium, lead, hexavalient chromium, mercury, silver, zinc, cyanide, suspended solids, particulates, grease and
oil, settleable solids, flow rate, and turbidity."
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DELICIOSAS!
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oldhippie
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Good point, and thanks for telling me softly that I didn't comprehend the first sentence. I didn't catch the significance of "monitored" (looked
for?). I suppose these metals are especially, in some way, toxic hence the monitoring.
That's the problem, I couldn't find any results of real measurements. I ran into some subscription ($$) websites that looked like they may have data.
The water engineer that posted in this thread offered the most info. The engineering company's recommendation of well injection and land disposal
implies they think disposal in the Sea of Cortez is not a good idea.
It will be interesting to see what the approved plans are in regards to plant capacity and waste disposal method.
Also interesting is this conversion factor: 6,600 kWh of electricity per acre-foot of water produced. 1.0 acre foot = 325,851 gallons.
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Pescador
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These possible contaminants are directly related to what EPA requires for monitoring of any water production discharge. In the United States any
discharge requires a permit and is licensed to operate under certain rules and regulations. Obviously, we have a problem with Loreto in that they
probably will not be subject to the same regulations and restrictions. Pam indicated that she can not even find where the drinking water is tested or
chlorinated so I suspect that the monitoring of discharge is even more loosely controlled.
PS, hipster, great article and good stuff.
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oldhippie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
These possible contaminants are directly related to what EPA requires for monitoring of any water production discharge. In the United States any
discharge requires a permit and is licensed to operate under certain rules and regulations. Obviously, we have a problem with Loreto in that they
probably will not be subject to the same regulations and restrictions. Pam indicated that she can not even find where the drinking water is tested or
chlorinated so I suspect that the monitoring of discharge is even more loosely controlled.
PS, hipster, great article and good stuff. |
Glad you liked the info.
I don't think anybody, except possibly the poorest people, in Mexico drinks tap water. When I moved here my tap water drinking dogs had diarrhea for
the first couple of months.
They were fat anyway. 
Maybe I have new diet to sell. The Mexican tap water diet. Drink a quart a day and watch the pounds flush away.
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oldhippie
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I never lamented about not being able to buy into LB. I like houses with some land around them that are reasonably priced. Gee, I even want to park my
car at the house.
I lamented about the high prices due to developments like LB.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldhippie
It will be interesting to see what the approved plans are in regards to plant capacity and waste disposal method.
Also interesting is this conversion factor: 6,600 kWh of electricity per acre-foot of water produced. 1.0 acre foot = 325,851 gallons.
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Energy usage sounds high. I have seen an 2007 FS for an RO desal project in Dana Pt that would produce 15 MGD for energy usage of 3,800 kwh/af, and
have water cost of $1,290/af. By the way, you can put that $1,290/af cost in perspective if you consider that imported water in so cal costs about
600/af, and well water costs about $200/af. (costs do not include treatment/final distribution)
Desal water can be returned to ocean quite safely if discharge is diffused - such is planned for Encina desal project. Undergound injection is
feasible too, but more expensive.
You wanna live in the desert and have a city, you gotta go with desal and suck up the cost.
Without growth, communities stagnate. Stagnant populations may be nice for retirees that already got theirs, but you can't build a business or career
in a no-growth town.
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