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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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Mood: Full Time Residents
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for us simpletons
sigma = measurement for standard deviation
but...i could be wrong
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
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laventana,
With all due respect, I'm done with this. We could go on forever. Until there is more evidence that "secret chips" exist and are widespread, there's
no point to continue this debate.
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laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
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Mood: sharing
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
laventana,
With all due respect, I'm done with this. We could go on forever. Until there is more evidence that "secret chips" exist and are widespread, there's
no point to continue this debate. |
asked you to put up. there are chips available. I proved that.
and my questions I asked were simple if you really knew the in depth hard issues about your industry that from what I see you seem to be proclaiming.
Sorry if I ask hard direct questions but I have learned this can flush out internet people who claim things that they have no knowledge of.
I can assume there are no competent independent inspectors out there if you till shown otherwise. You claim to be an insider and could not answer
very simple questions that are critical to the protection of consumers, like how many regulators there are and how many pumps. Do they actually
check the the chip or just check that gas comes out of a nozzle? less than 5 gallons and so on every year or several years.
and as I said I proved they are out there. I have seen one with a alternative button. If no one is actually checking, well gee..... easy pickens
out there when there is no one to watch the henhouse or the fox is watching the henhouse.
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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Mood: Full Time Residents
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i must have missed the documentation
that there are actually
"blackmarket chips" for gas pumps
and this documentation for the running gas pump is incomplete
no hose shows
the nozzel could be from another pump
it does look real though but...this is NOT conclusive evidence
here is that doc you provided
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opADj9IlAqA
i kinda like this ripoff scam
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
i kinda like this ripoff scam
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Yep. I keep a small person in my trunk for this exact situation.
And that pump slowly charging for gas video is what's called meter creeping. Bad bladder inside pump. Usually only charges $.01 at the beginning of
the transaction. Like you said they don't show the entire hose traced back to the pump. This "ripoff" is not the norm and is a malfunction, not some
gas station owner sitting in his back room with a secret remote control, ripping people off. 
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by laventana
| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
laventana,
With all due respect, I'm done with this. We could go on forever. Until there is more evidence that "secret chips" exist and are widespread, there's
no point to continue this debate. |
asked you to put up. there are chips available. I proved that.
and my questions I asked were simple if you really knew the in depth hard issues about your industry that from what I see you seem to be proclaiming.
Sorry if I ask hard direct questions but I have learned this can flush out internet people who claim things that they have no knowledge of.
I can assume there are no competent independent inspectors out there if you till shown otherwise. You claim to be an insider and could not answer
very simple questions that are critical to the protection of consumers, like how many regulators there are and how many pumps. Do they actually
check the the chip or just check that gas comes out of a nozzle? less than 5 gallons and so on every year or several years.
and as I said I proved they are out there. I have seen one with a alternative button. If no one is actually checking, well gee..... easy pickens
out there when there is no one to watch the henhouse or the fox is watching the henhouse. |
Like I said, I'm done debating this.
[Edited on 3-17-2013 by Ateo]
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laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
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Mood: sharing
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thanks for the link, as your website states you are qualified in
southern california for environmental compliance. stressing environmental and safety... You work for the fox.... so yes a conflict of
interest in this discussion. Thus the burden is put on you even more for real data not your opinion.
don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in the services you provide to the gas stations. your site states "The Compliance Guys have Environmental
Coordinators all over Southern California" from your site it is very clear you are not in the market to do pump inspections for the government to
prevent fraudulent activities. You list no expertise in electronics to the pumps.
All I asked for were specific facts.... I look for industry people for the facts. so if you will not back up with real facts I personally can
not accept a financial conflict of interest party "qualified opinion".
an decent analogy IMHO is the recent bank failures where the compliance companies on them allowed them to sell toxic mortgages. these compliance
companies swore their customers were not cheating.
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laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
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Mood: sharing
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
i must have missed the documentation
that there are actually
"blackmarket chips" for gas pumps
and this documentation for the running gas pump is incomplete
no hose shows
the nozzel could be from another pump
it does look real though but...this is NOT conclusive evidence
here is that doc you provided
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opADj9IlAqA
i kinda like this ripoff scam
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just examples, and yes another link i also provided was for the chips, arrest and conviction. and a station that was too stupid to figure out
that they made an extra $300k....
gee easy google of more..
some states do not even test pumps at all, some every 5 years. our industry insider did not have the guts to tell us this.
and there are a total of 600 inspectors nation wide. How many pumps a million? hahahahaha like these could be inspected... I bet at the most one
handful of these inspectors are engineers that could actually test a chip.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/21/cbsnews_investigat...
| Quote: |
Mark Greenblatt of KHOU in Houston reports that for the first time ever, the state of Texas is suing a company that runs a chain of gas stations -
accusing it of deliberately shorting consumers. The company denies any wrongdoing, but they are not alone. Last year the state found nearly 2,000
pumps at other gas stations that were cheating drivers.
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http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=88004&page=1#.Tt...
| Quote: |
Additionally, there are some high-tech scams out there. Some gas stations are buying a $7,000 computer chip that can be placed in a pump to cheat
customers. The pumps then dispense less gas than is indicated.
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http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-5205... this form discusses several re-chipped sources.
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/20.03.html#subj1
| Quote: |
Today's *Los Angeles Times* reports that the county district attorney has filed charges against four men who are alleged to have replaced computer
chips in electronic gas pumps, thus cheating customers of between 7%-25% of their gasoline. The url to the full story is http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/METRO/t000091711.html According to the story, the problem was hard to detect partly because the chips were
programmed to generate accurate results in the five- and ten-gallon amounts used for testing the accuracy of pumps. The RISK here is twofold: That
misplaced trust in digital technology can lead consumers not to check things like gas pumps, and that it's easier to fool the regulators with an
intelligently programmed cheat.
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http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/04/feel-cheated-at.h...
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Apr 29, 2008 5:05:50 PM One does not necessarily have to learn how to "jury rig" a pump. You can buy flow chips on the blackmarket that short
customers by charging a higher price while shorting the "gallons". This is rarely done today as gas station operators now face huge fines and
potential loss of operating license. It was most prevelant in the DC area about two years ago, however the FBI busted the 18 member gang (ironically
all whom where from Middle Eastern countries and obviously well schooled in manipulating computer chips). Prior to today's susprise pump inspections,
the county inspector would contact the gas station due for inspection and inform them of his pending inspection day and time. This was done to insure
that the station had someone onsite to unlock the individual pumps. Prior to the inspector showing up one could swap out the flow chip and replace
with the standard chip that comes with the pump heads so no one would suspect anything. Ironically it was a disgruntled member of the "gang" who
tipped off the FBI.
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http://www.petrolplaza.com/technology/articles/MiZlbiYxMDUwO...
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In an even more disturbing dispenser rigging scheme, referred to as “computer chip cheating” in the 20/20 story, corrupt station owners are using a
computerized device to rig dispensers so that they dispense less gasoline than the customer pays for. (A state weights and measures official told me
that the controls for some such devices resemble a garage-door opener).
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| Quote: |
According to the 20/20 report, law enforcement authorities in California say that (1) thousands of customers in their state have been cheated by this
scheme, which may have spread from the midwest; (2) the cheaters have figured out how to ensure that purchases of five or 10 gallons are accurate,
because these are the quantities that official inspectors test for; and (3) anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of computer programming and a concept
of how they want to cheat can design a cheating system.
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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Mood: Full Time Residents
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geeezzz...
there still is NO proof that the chip exists
just because its printed on the internet DOESN'T mean its true
do you think the BIG gas companies want this
(not the retailer)
heck no...there is too much profit in regular sales
you dont think they would shut down (quietly) a source for these chips
as for the amount of gas you get in baja...do the test...it was easy
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laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
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Mood: sharing
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bob and Susan
geeezzz...
there still is NO proof that the chip exists
just because its printed on the internet DOESN'T mean its true
do you think the BIG gas companies want this
(not the retailer)
heck no...there is too much profit in regular sales
you dont think they would shut down (quietly) a source for these chips
as for the amount of gas you get in baja...do the test...it was easy |
your test is about the stupidest test
I could imagine if one is trying to find theft if you read or understood the references I posted. second, again I listed convicted people that
put in chips in over a hundred pumps and you are in denial.
and third I specifically caught a place with a second button here in the baja.
you are welcome to do a real statistical test using as the US now does in some places over 10 gallons because the chips as reported kick in at OVER 5
gallons or over 10 gallons so that as stated the weights and measurements do not catch them. Or find links to that there is no cheating.
Gee just because my sources on the internet were the LA times, ABC, and 20/20 well you are welcome to post links that prove you know what you are
talking about. I have and ask you to do the same. you are welcome to reverse the convictions reported in the LA times and the other sources.
But till you doyou certainly have no credibility from my standpoint as a Engineer with you anecdotal data not supported by any credible methodology.
As least our industry advocate had industry credibility to start with even with a conflict of interest was worth listening to till he would not back
up with linkable facts.
here is the one i posted in previous post
http://articles.latimes.com/1998/oct/09/business/fi-30669
| Quote: |
Two managers of Mepco Oil, based in Santa Fe Springs, and two others are suspected of replacing the computer chip that regulates the quantity of gas
delivered at the pump with an altered chip. Investigators found 140 altered chips in 12 stations throughout Los Angeles, Orange, San Bernardino and
Kern counties. Dist. Atty. Gil Garcetti referred to the alleged scheme as a "high-tech innovation used to steal money from consumers who don't know
they're victimized." The altered chip would cause the pump to speed up its reading, giving the customer 7% to 25% less gasoline than indicated,
officials said.
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I know you do not believe the newspapers as a source either, after all a good for instance is two Hawaii newspapers printed Obama birth when he was
born and to this date many americans still say Obama was not born in the USA. So all I can say is you are welcome to live in your world.
And you have a direct report by me that I caught a station, it was easy when you click and a tablespoon comes out on a motorcycle and it reads 3
liters when the pump was cleared. and then I saw where he then pressed to get it to work properly.
I can say is people on this board you get to pick either believe me a person who has been VP of engineering, director of R& and designed input devices and the sources I have listed or believe a paid industry
spokesperson/insider, or this Bob and sue poster who by all means really believe that their little fill a quart jug up test really proves their point
and is really meaningful to this discussion..... They seem to think theft of hundreds of thousands of dollars just at one station in a year is a
joke.
I have no idea what his qualification is but as you notice I am willing to bet it all I can rig a station and can not be caught with the present means
as outlined with the 600 testers, ie a whopping 12 in each state average in the entire USA for the 3 million or so pumps out there. He may be the
god of testing these pumps in reality but he has not listed his qualifications so I can challenge it on the merits like I did with the conflict of
interest industry professional who is paid by the stations.
I believe I have backed up my point of view with decent links and have specific personal example. readers obviously decide. I am still open to
other examples by them that are based on some form of reality or cited sources.
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Udo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6343
Registered: 4-26-2008
Location: Black Hills, SD/Ensenada/San Felipe
Member Is Offline
Mood: TEQUILA!
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I thought this post was about how to purchase gas at Baja's Pemex so one does not feel they've been ripped off.
Bob and Susan did a nice video-backed presentation and the rest of Nomadland posted where not to buy gas.
If we get into diesel is this going to start again?
JEEESHH...no wonder Jesse quit this post.
Lighten up!
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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laventana
You have taken an interesting thread with civil discussion posts and turned it into a personal confrontational debate.
Based on your antagonistic diatribes, you have lost any credibility that you may have had in a more civil exchange with other Nomads as you try to get
your point/information across.
Do/did you respond like this when discussing opposing views in your "professional" career???
I suggest you find other Baja forums (they are out there) that tolerate your type of posts. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.
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Udo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6343
Registered: 4-26-2008
Location: Black Hills, SD/Ensenada/San Felipe
Member Is Offline
Mood: TEQUILA!
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RIGHT ON! bajaguy
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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Well said Bajaguy, I thought maybe it was just me.
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5898
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
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100% with you BajaGuy. Well said.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64762
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
100% with you BajaGuy. Well said. |
X2
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laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: sharing
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajaguy
You have taken an interesting thread with civil discussion posts and turned it into a personal confrontational debate.
Based on your antagonistic diatribes, you have lost any credibility that you may have had in a more civil exchange with other Nomads as you try to get
your point/information across.
Do/did you respond like this when discussing opposing views in your "professional" career???
I suggest you find other Baja forums (they are out there) that tolerate your type of posts. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.
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sorry if you take it that way... but to me this is a serious subject. Maybe I take it a bit more
serious than you. But I really do not like when industry insiders tell me this absolutely has never happened. And it takes just a few minutes
to find the exact opposite.
Yep I am for information... sorry if you do not like my style. I do apologize for that.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64762
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Serious that a lot of Nomads are involved with this, and this comment: "your test is about the stupidest test I could imagine" from you about what Bob
posted isn't a good way to get respect in here. I know Bob, and he is a most intelligent man I have a ton of respect for. That Bob made the effort and
took the time to show us his test is worth so much more that theories you have posted.
You are new (or using a new screen name), so being nice here won't hurt.
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laventana
Nomad
Posts: 216
Registered: 8-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: sharing
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Serious that a lot of Nomads are involved with this, and this comment: "your test is about the stupidest test I could imagine" from you about what Bob
posted isn't a good way to get respect in here. I know Bob, and he is a most intelligent man I have a ton of respect for. That Bob made the effort and
took the time to show us his test is worth so much more that theories you have posted.
You are new (or using a new screen name), so being nice here won't hurt. |
I have been around for many years
as you can see my date I joined, just used this site for information. But saw this subject since I had not only a serious person encounter that
the average person would not have understood by the unique nature of actually knowing the insides of this technology and how it can be used to steal.
And caught them dead handed. If I caught them there would be many more from what I have read about.
and if one uses a bit of logic one person even reported a Pemex person told a person that buy by the liter. Just that alone if true tells you enough
about what is going on.
and the so called myth busting by them needs to be told as it is. From the engineering and statistical world it absolutely shows nothing of what
is going on in the ability as reported all over about the pump irregularity. That they again and again counter my posts with their anecdotal
non-relavant test to what is in the links I reported is what I would consider worth being criticized. We do not need people reading this thread
even thinking what they did has any merit to the saying there is no cheating, I believe people have a right to the other opinions. I certainly like
other sides and welcome them.
Again if you here do not like the links and facts I posted and you believe I do not have the right to my words of warning about what I really consider
irresponsible information that is your choice to not read them.
But from what I see here yes I am direct, and yes I backed up my position. Yes a bit more direct than many seem to like, but again you do not have
to believe me.
Maybe this was why I was VP I am very direct and do not penalize anyone for being wrong. I never fired a single person in my career. I firmly
believe the direct truth is best, and working through things even when people messed up.
and from the feedback from this i will probably just stick to this thread and be gone for a long time again. sorry I do not conform to your style
and no hard feelings. It is your site not mine.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64762
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It is a site for anyone who loves Baja or wants to learn about Baja, and not my site (see posts from 'BajaNomad', Doug). I too get comments from folks
that don't know me thinking my style of helping is sometimes not soft enough, lol. Helping people learn to respect Baja by (at least) spelling the
towns correctly is one such item that grates a few the wrong way. 
The person (DavidE) who started this thread has sure been absent after getting everyone on a roll with his theory about asking for fuel by the
quantity instead of by the cost...
I just think you were a tad rude after the effort that Bob made to show (at his Mulege Pemex source) that fuel is the same no matter how you order it.
I only looked at the number of posts and not the registration date, my bad. Sorry there hasn't been anything else to interest you here to talk in the
past 5 years!
[Edited on 12-5-2011 by David K]
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