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MrBillM
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Burp
Just finished a BLT.
And Glass of Milk.
WHEN the day comes that the ersatz Bacon tastes as good AND costs the same or less, OK, but until that happens - NO WAY.
My dogs agree.
Although they aren't concerned with cost.
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wessongroup
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Well, if the EPA, FDA and a few more ... would allow testing to be conducted on the "human" population, it would certainly remove that concern ...
Plus, it would move the "approval" of products through agency "review" must faster ...
Some how, I don't think that will be happening ... 
Progress ... comes with a cost
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SFandH
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Yes, they are a similar issue but the cruelty of testing on living things is magnitudes higher than simply slaughtering one.
Yet I don't think any vegan would refuse a pill to make him well on the basis of the suffering that had gone into making that pill.
Sounds like hypocrisy to me. |
It's always difficult when one finds himself in a situation that calls for compromising a moral belief. But that doesn't mean the belief is not worthy
nor does it mean it should be abandoned. I'm glad you're thinking about it.
[Edited on 9-26-2012 by SFandH]
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Skipjack Joe
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I also question the notion that we eat meat for the pleasure of it and no other reason.
You mean that all those spearheads and arrowheads we find that go back to paleolithic times are from people just having fun?
Why would someone risk being gored by some large beast (trampled by a mastodon) just for the pleasure of eating something he/she doesn't really need
at all?
I'll take that answer while eating my blueberry yogurt. LOL.
[Edited on 9-26-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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SFandH
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I also question the notion that we eat meat for the pleasure of it and no other reason.
You mean that all those spearheads and arrowheads we find that go back to paleolithic times are from people just having fun?
Why would someone risk being gored by some large beast (trampled by a mastodon) just for the pleasure of eating something he/she doesn't really need
at all?
I'll take that answer while eating my blueberry yogurt. LOL.
[Edited on 9-26-2012 by Skipjack Joe] |
They were hungry and probably didn't spend much time thinking about ethical behavior and the moral values it is based upon, assuming the artifacts
you're talking about were used to kill animals for food and not to kill neighboring tribesmen. A common cause of death in "caveman" times was murder,
according to forensic anthropologists.
What reason is there to eat meat, cheese, milk, or eggs other than they taste good, when fruits, grains, and vegetables are available?
[Edited on 9-27-2012 by SFandH]
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castaway$
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| Quote: | What reason is there to eat meat, cheese, milk, or eggs other than they taste good, when fruits, grains, and vegetables are available?
[Edited on 9-27-2012 by SFandH] |
I would hate to have lived back then in the northern hemisphere and survive as a vegan! Not many fruits, grains and vegetables were available in the
dead of winter and leaves just wouldn't provide adequate clothing to survive, meat eaters survive, vegans not so much.
Live Indubiously!
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elizabeth
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In any discussions here about paleo humans and what they ate, and the questions of other resources for food...one major one is missing. Insects. Early
humans, and some currently living communities ate or still eat lots of grubs, ant eggs, crickets, cicadas, etc. High in protein. Not exactly vegan,
but so far down the food chain, that unless you're a Jain, I can't imagine much in the way of ethical arguments. Is there one? Just curious....
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EnsenadaDr
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Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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Someone on this thread mentioned the animal kingdom's methods of killing which can seem pretty cruel and inhumane. When I was a kid, my mom watched
TV continuously (which probably accounts for my distaste of television so much, the "boob tube"). But we did watch "Wild Kingdom" which would show
some graceful antelope being chased by a lion, and suffering under the jaws chomping down on their extremities, head or whatever else caught the
lion's fancy. The lion didn't think to himself what should be the easiest and most humane to kill...and I looked upon it as natural. My interest in
eating vegan is to stay away from saturated fats and cholesterol, lose weight and live a longer life. I am the first to admit that I enjoy bacon,
steak, fish, etc. But clearly, loading up your body with heavy duty grease and fat is not going to make you live longer. Alternatively, loading
yourself with carbs and having diabetes won't work either. I respect those that give up meat and animal components to stop cruelty to animals, and
all should be able to live the life they choose to live. My son commented to me the other day that he did it because he wasn't feeling well, and now
feels great (even eating 30 bananas a day, by the way check out the website). I don't recommend 30 bananas a day myself.
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SFandH
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General info about animal rights:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights
Two central concepts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism
A popular animal rights lecture (70 minutes) in many languages. Over 1,100,000 views. The speaker, Gary Yourofsky, is currently lecturing in Israel
and gives many lectures at American colleges and universities every year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4
Gary Yourofsky's website, lots of info about veganism.
http://www.adaptt.org/
[Edited on 9-27-2012 by SFandH]
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Skipjack Joe
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I also wanted to point out that humans have enzymes specifically for breaking down animal fat and meat proteins. Another words we have been built to
eat meat. And that's a fact that can't be denied. That's who we are.
If you force feed meat to any rodent it will vomit the food or pass it out with serious bloating and indigestion problems. It may even kill it. That's
a vegetarian. It is incapable of eating anything else. But that's not us.
From a moral point of view I see no reason why one should feel guilty for being what he is. The notion is absurd.
As we all know living manner is broken down into trophic levels. The consumers feed on the producers. How can you possibly come up with a value system
that treats the producers with the same values as consumers and vice versa? Only humans are doing this. A wasp feels no remorse for the tarantula it
stings because that's how it's young will survive. We're top level apex predators.
But getting back to my original point. Vegans say that we're omnivores and don't need meat. Meat is a luxury we can do without. I'm not convinced.
Nothing survives in the natural world unless it has value. If we are built to eat meat there must be some benefit from it or it wouldn't be there.
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SFandH
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Another words we have been built to eat meat.
We are built to be able to eat meat, not to eat meat. Small distinction, but important to the discussion.
From a moral point of view I see no reason why one should feel guilty for being what he is.
Man is not a carnivore. Eating meat is an option. If exercising that option makes you feel guilty because of the suffering it causes sentient animals,
don't do it.
If we are built to eat meat there must be some benefit from it or it wouldn't be there.
Scientists have found no benefits to eating meat beyond the benefits of eating plants. Quite the opposite. Personally I know. I lived as an omnivore
before and a herbivore now. I've never felt better on a daily basis, it's much easier to maintain a normal weight, and my blood chemistry is the best
ever.
Trophic levels? I prefer to live as a herbivore. I have that option.
Read about the various groups of vegetarians throughout the world. There have been many studies. They are all doing fine. In fact less obesity,
diabetes, heart disease, cancer. The China Study is a new, scientifically rigorous study that is currently being widely read.
The health benefits of a plant-based diet and the concept of animal rights often get mixed in discussions about veganism. I like to think that health
benefits are a reward for having compassion towards sentient animals. Karma. And that's about as far as I have gone into the metaphysical world to
date.
Implementation and extension of the Golden Rule to all sentient beings.
[Edited on 9-28-2012 by SFandH]
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Skipjack Joe
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That's the point. You can choose to be a plant eater but you ARE an omnivore. And feeling guilty about what you are makes no sense. Guilt should come
from choices we make not what we are. You may choose to not use half of the digestive enzymes your body makes but those that use the full complement
should not feel guilty.
I am fully aware of the benefits of eating plant material.
Without having read much on the subject my guess is that we would not have evolved into what we are today without the benefit of a protein rich diet
that meat provides. I.e. evolution doesn't happen by accident. Who knows. Perhaps there were plant eating hominids at one time that were outcompeted
by the omnivores.
This business of feeling shame for what you are really bothers me. It reminds me of the guilt the churches have tried to make men feel with regards to
sexual activity. A totally futile endeavor.
[Edited on 9-28-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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SFandH
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I'm the type of guy that I hope people would say "wouldn't hurt a fly". Last year there was a snake slithering between the redwood lattice I have
attached to a concrete wall. My wife insisted I kill it. I just wanted to let it slither away. She insisted so I killed it. I felt bad doing so. My
wife also sets sticky mouse traps. I hate it when I hear a mouse caught and crying, suffering. Feeling guilty when I ignore my compassion for animals
is not something I have control over. I wasn't taught it, I didn't learn it. It's innate. That's the difference between this and the church/sex issue,
where the church was teaching against innateness.
The meat/dairy industry is very good at hiding the suffering from consumers. The majority of people that know about it make money from it. Vast
numbers of animals are suffering because they taste good and for no other reason.
I believe people are taught to quell their compassion.
"Got milk? Does a body good."
[Edited on 9-28-2012 by SFandH]
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Skipjack Joe
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I respect your point of view, SF and H, and share it to a large degree.
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elizabeth
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I respect your point of view, SF and H, and share it to a large degree. |
Wow, I did too up until the point of reading that you kill snakes and torture mice...how on earth do you talk about animal suffering and use sticky
traps for mice????
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SFandH
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At the behest of my wife. It was for the greater good. Perhaps along the lines of self defense.
[Edited on 9-28-2012 by SFandH]
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MrBillM
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Veganistic Meditation
Desiring to give appropriate weight to a substantive subject, I dedicated the last two days camping in the mountains to the dietary dilemma and the
attendant moral meanderings manifested in the animal-rights question.
At the end of the day, the bright light of inspiration illuminated and revealed the truth to me.
Meat is Neat.
I threw the Rib-Eyes on the B-B-Q.
It was the Christian thing to do.
The Burger at Carl's Jr. on the way home was great, too.
Cheer up, Though.
There's GOT to be someone out there now gnawing on flesh who Might change their minds and decide roots beat steaks .
Maybe.
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wessongroup
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Years ago took a course in comparative evolution of chordate structure ..
"Diet and dentition" was a central topic of the Phylum, as it showed how one "made its living" so to speak
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SFandH
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
That's the point. You can choose to be a plant eater but you ARE an omnivore. |
I don't know about that. You're splitting hairs, so I will too. I have the capability of being an omnivore, but I am a herbivore, by choice. Why?
Because I choose not to subject others to suffering and an unnatural death to satisfy my taste buds.
Thanks for the discussion.
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SFandH
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Desiring to give appropriate weight to a substantive subject, I dedicated the last two days camping in the mountains to the dietary dilemma and the
attendant moral meanderings manifested in the animal-rights question.
At the end of the day, the bright light of inspiration illuminated and revealed the truth to me.
Meat is Neat.
I threw the Rib-Eyes on the B-B-Q.
It was the Christian thing to do.
The Burger at Carl's Jr. on the way home was great, too.
Cheer up, Though.
There's GOT to be someone out there now gnawing on flesh who Might change their minds and decide roots beat steaks .
Maybe. |
I enjoy your posts, sort of, maybe. You have a way with words.
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