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mtgoat666
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Quote: Originally posted by lencho  |
Credibility check: I skimmed over that report and found nothing to support that astounding allegation.
Please quote the part that supports that allegation. Or explain how you got to that conclusion. |
Have you not learned by now? Oldkid Paul is a covid-denier who spouts lies and misinformation about covid. Nothing Paul Says has a shred of truth.
Hard to figure out the motivation of people like Paul - they purposefully make up lies about covid out of some weird misguided belief that lieing is
justified by their their politics.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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gnukid
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| Quote: Originally posted by lencho |
Credibility check: I skimmed over that report and found nothing to support that astounding allegation.
Please quote the part that supports that allegation. Or explain how you got to that conclusion. |
Do you own reading, research and make up your own mind.
See page 43, 44 table 12
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
Table 10 of the report shows the number of Covid-19 cases by vaccination status in England, and it confirms the vast majority were recorded among the
triple vaccinated population.
Table 11 of the report shows the number of Covid-19 hospitalisations by vaccination status in England, and it again confirms the vast majority were
recorded among the triple vaccinated population.
Table 12 of the report shows the number of Covid-19 deaths by vaccination status in England, and it yet again confirms the vast majority were recorded
among the triple vaccinated population, this time by an extremely concerning amount.
[Edited on 3-16-2022 by gnukid]
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Purdyd
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table 12a
18-29 year olds 2 people died who had 3 doses, 10 total
that is 2 out of 10
When you get to 80+ 1854 died out of 2491 7.44 out of 10
footnote 1.
| Quote: | In the context of very high vaccine coverage in the population, even with a highly effective vaccine, it is expected that a large proportion of
cases, hospitalisations and
deaths would occur in vaccinated individuals, simply because a larger proportion of the population are vaccinated than unvaccinated and no vaccine is
100% effective.
This is especially true because vaccination has been prioritised in individuals who are more susceptible or more at risk of severe disease.
Individuals in risk groups may
also be more at risk of hospitalisation or death due to non-COVID-19 causes, and thus may be hospitalised or die with COVID-19 rather than because of
COVID-19.
|
from figure 3 a,b,c of the population 80+ 93% roughly have had one dose and roughly 90% have had two doses.
So 9 out of 10
so if the vaccine was doing nothing you would expect 9 out of 10 people to be dying with 3 doses
And then of course are you truly comparing like populations?
in other words is the 10% of 80+ in the UK the same as the 90% of the population with 3 doses?
You could surmise those most at risk have a higher uptake in vaccination.
In fact from Table 5. Vaccine uptake in people identified as immunosuppressed in England
is 87.5% for three doses, much higher than the general population
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JDCanuck
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Lencho and Purdyd: Thanks for posting those figures. What I get from them is we should definitely be focused on supplying vaccines to the highest at
risk age groups globally if our intent is to save as many lives from early deaths as possible.
If they and their doctors decide their underlying conditions indicate they should avoid any particular vaccines, that too should be their choice. This
is the case with the only person I know personally that has chosen NOT to take the vaccines. I'm on the side of that risk is one they should make in
consultation with their trusted doctor and should not be mandated against their will.
Thankfully, it appears that is where we are now headed.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | I'm on the side of that risk is one they should make in consultation with their trusted doctor and should not be mandated against their will.
Thankfully, it appears that is where we are now headed. |
People are very poor evaluators of personal risk. I know many ant-vaxxers that have not taken the jab because they perceive a risk. These same
people are smokers, fat, sedentary, have unhealthy diet — all much worse risk factors for disabling disease and early death.
Covid just re-proved one thing: a lot of people are really, really, really stupid!
[Edited on 3-13-2022 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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pauldavidmena
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| Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | I'm on the side of that risk is one they should make in consultation with their trusted doctor and should not be mandated against their will.
Thankfully, it appears that is where we are now headed. |
People are very poor evaluators of personal risk. I know many ant-vaxxers that have not taken the jab because they perceive a risk. These same
people are smokers, fat, sedentary, have unhealthy diet — all much worse risk factors for disabling disease and early death.
Covid just re-proved one thing: a lot of people are really, really, really stupid!
[Edited on 3-13-2022 by mtgoat666] |
There is plenty of willful ignorance on the part of the unvaxed, but I'd hesitate to label it stupidity in all cases. My oldest son didn't get
vaccinated because he had heard (not from me) that the vaccines could cause infertility, even though the CDC guidelines state the exact opposite - that couples planning to have children should absolutely be vaccinated. Inevitably he contracted
COVID in early December - most likely the Omicron variant. Athletic and healthy at age 36 his symptoms were mild with one exception: his sense of
taste and smell have been seriously compromised. Working in the food preparation business, this is a big deal.
As for mandates, one argument in their favor is that people left to their own devices have a tendency to make baffling decisions. My youngest son's
employer introduced a mandate and he resigned rather than getting the jab, claiming "they forced me to resign". No they didn't! They gave him a clear
path to retaining his job. And yes, he ended up with COVID as well. While I'm glad both sons recovered, I really wish they had taken the steps to
prevent infection altogether, especially since they may have passed the virus on to others.
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pacificobob
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It hard to overestimate the amount willful ignorance present in our culture.
IQ45 totally understands and uses it to his advantage.
"I love the poorly educated "
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JZ
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Vaccine good. Mandates bad.
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mtgoat666
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Now that y’all are celebrating low covid by getting back to licking door knobs, heavy panting in crowded spaces, and care-free swapping out of
germs, what is your plan for potential resurgence of covid as new variant?
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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Lee
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Mandates aren't bad except for people who think they are sacrificing freedom by having to wear one.
Mandates can be good or bad. Have you thought about why the pandemic is subsiding? Could it be because of masks and mandates.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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JZ
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lee |
Mandates aren't bad except for people who think they are sacrificing freedom by having to wear one.
Mandates can be good or bad. Have you thought about why the pandemic is subsiding? Could it be because of masks and mandates.
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Vaccines don't stop the spread of covid. They protect from serious illness. The govt. played pretty lose and fast with this fact.
Vaccines should never have been forced on the young and healthy.
Very few ppl vaccinated their young kids (5-11 yo's). Why is that? Are they anti-vaxxers? Likely because they know they weren't at risk and are low
spreaders. I'm sure many also believe natural immunity is better in the long term.
The virus is subsiding because so many ppl got it and the affects of it are much less severe. Much closer to the flu or a cold, especially if ppl are
vaxxed and/or healthy. A lot of ppl predicted in December that this is exactly what would happen, despite the media being in a tissy over case
counts.
[Edited on 3-14-2022 by JZ]
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Lee
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| Quote: Originally posted by JZ | | Quote: Originally posted by Lee |
Mandates aren't bad except for people who think they are sacrificing freedom by having to wear one.
Mandates can be good or bad. Have you thought about why the pandemic is subsiding? Could it be because of masks and mandates.
|
Vaccines don't stop the spread of covid. They protect from serious illness. The govt. played pretty lose and fast with this fact.
[Don't believe that's true. Even if you post info from med journals or where ever you get your info. As for fast and loose, current admin
has played catch up after the last disastrous admin!]
Vaccines should never have been forced on the young and healthy.
Very few ppl vaccinated their young kids (5-11 yo's). Why is that? Are they anti-vaxxers? Likely because they know they weren't at risk and are low
spreaders. I'm sure many also believe natural immunity is better in the long term.
[You see a problem witht vaxxing kids. I DON'T! Are these parents anti-vaxxers? Looks like that to me. Parents know kids weren't at
risk and low spreaders? BS. Generally, around masks, mandates, restrictions, parents don't know shlt. Esp. those parents who think vax makes
your head magnetic.]
The virus is subsiding because so many ppl got it and the affects of it are much less severe. Much closer to the flu or a cold, especially if ppl are
vaxxed and/or healthy.
[Virus is subsiding BECAUSE of the mandates, masks, and vax. More people would have died without these restrictions. Many people
believe covid is a conspiracy created by the gov't. You prob believe that too.]
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US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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JZ
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lee |
[You see a problem witht vaxxing kids. I DON'T! Are these parents anti-vaxxers? Looks like that to me. Parents know kids weren't at
risk and low spreaders? BS. Generally, around masks, mandates, restrictions, parents don't know shlt. Esp. those parents who think vax makes
your head magnetic.]
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Smh. Some of you Boomers have lost your minds. And this take is truly against the science.
I seriously doubt that a young man Lee would have got a jab for his 5 yo.
But even if you would, you wouldn't try to force that choice on another parent.
[Edited on 3-15-2022 by JZ]
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Alm
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | Hi Alm: Which part of Canada would you be looking at? Our cases, deaths and hospitalizations due to Covid are way way down
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Hi, JDCanuck. I'm looking at British Columbia - where you also are, as I recall. Cases are way down compared to Christmas. They are way higher than in
2020 and so are hospitalizations. Now we have ~300 cases per day, was 60/day in March-April 2020. Hospitalizations tend to mirror daily cases
number with a delay. Data: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/a6f23959a8b14bfa989...
If you're on the Vancouver Island, it was 5-6/daily in March-April 2020, now 40-50. Click on the icon in the top right next to the graphs to zoom in.
[Edited on 3-14-2022 by Alm]
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Lee
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| Quote: Originally posted by JZ |
I seriously doubt that a young man Lee would have got a jab for his 5 yo.
But even if you would, don't try to force that choice on another parent.
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Can't answer that with certainty. If I were a single parent, no question, yes. With my wife in the picture, I'd defer to her. She's smarter
than me.
I would err on the side that is better safe than sorry. I don't consider the vax as a problem for anyone, adults or kids.
Mandates aren't choices. Restrictions are for a common good, not everyone will be happy and that's the nature of this country.
I think the people have spoken. The stupid people have problems with that. Tough.
Do some research you'll see Boomers are leading the pack. Certainly over the Lost Gen, uh, that would be Gen X. Ha Ha.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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JDCanuck
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Thanks Alm...I see we have different dates as reference points for the various waves. I used Nov 14/20 to Feb 7 2021 peak to trough on wave 1.
Indicated case fatality rates or better yet infection fatality rates however are a better measure of community immunity and required responses IMHO.
When they stop frequent testing as they have recently, even case fatality rates give a poor indication.
Cheers!
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Purdyd
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| Quote: Originally posted by JZ | | Quote: Originally posted by Lee |
Mandates aren't bad except for people who think they are sacrificing freedom by having to wear one.
Mandates can be good or bad. Have you thought about why the pandemic is subsiding? Could it be because of masks and mandates.
|
Vaccines don't stop the spread of covid. They protect from serious illness. The govt. played pretty lose and fast with this fact.
Vaccines should never have been forced on the young and healthy.
Very few ppl vaccinated their young kids (5-11 yo's). Why is that? Are they anti-vaxxers? Likely because they know they weren't at risk and are low
spreaders. I'm sure many also believe natural immunity is better in the long term.
The virus is subsiding because so many ppl got it and the affects of it are much less severe. Much closer to the flu or a cold, especially if ppl are
vaxxed and/or healthy. A lot of ppl predicted in December that this is exactly what would happen, despite the media being in a tissy over case
counts.
[Edited on 3-14-2022 by JZ] |
Whether vaccines slow or stop the spread of the virus is not so cut and dry and it can depend on which variant.
From the uk report above
| Quote: | | Studies have now reported on vaccine effectiveness against infection in healthcare workers, care home residents and the general population with the
Alpha and Delta variants (12, 13, 14, 15). Generally estimates are similar to or slightly lower than vaccine effectiveness estimates against
symptomatic disease and there is evidence of significant waning in protection against infection over time. Estimates for vaccine effectiveness against
infection with the Omicron variant are not yet available. |
In California https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/
| Quote: | | From February 14, 2022 to February 20, 2022, unvaccinated people were 5.4 times more likely to get COVID-19 than people who received their booster
dose. |
Although that could suffer from the same population bias you se e in other raw data.
Certainly we have seen a decrease in hospitalizations with vaccines and now you get into the shared good.
I’m not happy about mandates and in an ideal world people would do the right thing for everyone without one.
But I’m not sure how the idea of personal freedom trumps doing something that will help other people.
Vaccination of the very young I agree seems like very low reward for risk.
I’ve seen some otherwise healthy adults hit hard by Covid.
I agree the impact of Covid is subsiding because we are building up immunity through transmission and vaccination.
Media, mainstream and none, will always tell you the sky is falling.
What will be interesting to watch is how countries like New Zealand, and China fare as they open up.
Is Covid evolving to a less severe disease or are we simply building up immunity.
So will China be like American Samoa which completely isolated during the Spanish flu and escaped the deadly version?
And here is a chance to arm chair quarterback the future.
Are we really done with Covid?
Historically we’ve had something crop up every six months or so.
What do we do now?
[Edited on 3-17-2022 by Purdyd]
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Alm
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| Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | Thanks Alm...I see we have different dates as reference points for the various waves. I used Nov 14/20 to Feb 7 2021 peak to trough on wave 1.
Indicated case fatality rates or better yet infection fatality rates however are a better measure of community immunity and required responses IMHO.
When they stop frequent testing as they have recently, even case fatality rates give a poor indication.
Cheers! |
How can there be different dates for a peak of the same wave?  . I referred to the
"1st" wave, as mentioned. It peaked in March-April 2020 at ~60 cases/day with ~60 hospitalizations. Then it dropped to 10 cases and they lifted the
lockdown.
Now we have 300 cases/day, 300 hospitalizations in the province.
Infection fatality rate can't be measured directly, it can only be estimated.
You can measure positivity - percentage of positive tests. Click on the tab at the bottom of the graphs in that link. It is now 7.5%, was 4.4% in the
peak of the 1st wave. New tests are now 6,000/day - was 3,500/day in the 1st wave. So we now test more than in March 2020 but positivity is also
higher. This is not good.
[Edited on 3-15-2022 by Alm]
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JDCanuck
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alm | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | Thanks Alm...I see we have different dates as reference points for the various waves. I used Nov 14/20 to Feb 7 2021 peak to trough on wave 1.
Indicated case fatality rates or better yet infection fatality rates however are a better measure of community immunity and required responses IMHO.
When they stop frequent testing as they have recently, even case fatality rates give a poor indication.
Cheers! |
How can there be different dates for a peak of the same wave? . I referred to the
"1st" wave, as mentioned. It peaked in March-April 2020 at ~60 cases/day with ~60 hospitalizations. Then it dropped to 10 cases and they lifted the
lockdown.
Now we have 300 cases/day, 300 hospitalizations in the province.
Infection fatality rate can't be measured directly, it can only be estimated.
You can measure positivity - percentage of positive tests. Click on the tab at the bottom of the graphs in that link. It is now 7.5%, was 4.4% in the
peak of the 1st wave. New tests are now 6,000/day - was 3,500/day in the 1st wave. So we now test more than in March 2020 but positivity is also
higher. This is not good.
[Edited on 3-15-2022 by Alm] |
Alm: Oh...we didn't really see much of that out here on the island, was pretty much a non-issue. Then I was counting what you would call the second
wave on the mainland. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
[Edited on 3-15-2022 by BajaNomad]
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Alm
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Yeah. You had it good there on the island at the beginning of the epidemic.
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