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Skipjack Joe
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Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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I suspect Detroit didn't help that water quality very much.
Tahoe is having water quality issues as well, BTW.
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Barry A.
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Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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DianaT posted above the following:
"Do you think that the state should just wait for the rain and take no official action?
You never answered these questions. Do you think that the following activities of man can affect weather and climate?
Urbanization
Large Scale Agriculture
Deforestation"
I am not David K. but I will take a crack at the answers:
Prefaced by "IMO"-------
Yes, the State should NOT take any official action at this time other than their proclamations, which are proper.
NO, The activities of man that you listed above do NOT cause "climate change", and only extremely minimally and locally effect "weather" and even that
is debatable..
Barry
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I suspect Detroit didn't help that water quality very much.
Tahoe is having water quality issues as well, BTW. |
Very true, but I am not at all sure that is what DianaT is talking about. Did primitive man "kill" the Great Lakes"?----I had not heard that. And
now modern man is doing it again? Is that her point, and if so just how did primitive man effect the Great Lakes? and what defines "killed"?
The Great Lakes were being polluted by modern man, but that is being largely rectified now, from what I understand. Lake Tahoe's problems are also
being rectified, and the lake's clarity is improving. We go there often, and it looks better to me tho I did not think it was that bad in the first
place. Lake Tahoe is unique, and largely a nearly-closed water-system with relatively little runoff, either in or out, and therefore somewhat
fragile---------the Great Lakes are very dynamic due to the huge volume of water involved, flowing in and out.
It is obvious to me that Government and Industries intervention in the increasing polution of the waters by man was necessary at both places, I will
admit. I just think that DianaT exagerated things a bit, never a good idea, IMO, as it erodes credibility.
Barry
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Whale-ista
Super Nomad
Posts: 2009
Registered: 2-18-2013
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sunny with chance of whales
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Lake Morena drawn down, as San Diego faces water shortage
the city of San Diego began draining water from lake Morena this year to supplement dwindling reserves.
This is a concern to residents and fishermen, as this article reports. The lake has lost 55% of its water, and a major fish kill is likely this summer.
Low lake levels are happening all over California. Many "lakes" are actually human-designed water reservoirs, designed to hold water for municipal
uses. But was the drought continues, we see the cupboard is almost bare...
\"Probably the airplanes will bring week-enders from Los Angeles before long, and the beautiful poor bedraggled old town will bloom with a
Floridian ugliness.\" (John Steinbeck, 1940, discussing the future of La Paz, BCS, Mexico)
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monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
DianaT posted above the following:
"Do you think that the state should just wait for the rain and take no official action?
You never answered these questions. Do you think that the following activities of man can affect weather and climate?
Urbanization
Large Scale Agriculture
Deforestation"
I am not David K. but I will take a crack at the answers:
Prefaced by "IMO"-------
Yes, the State should NOT take any official action at this time other than their proclamations, which are proper.
NO, The activities of man that you listed above do NOT cause "climate change", and only extremely minimally and locally effect "weather" and even that
is debatable..
Barry |
As a wise outdoorsman, you have the same answer as I would have posted.
Volcanoes destroy rain forests & pine forests all the time (Hawaii, Central America, Indonesia, Mt. St. Helens, etc.)... Did the climate change in
Washington enough that could be noticed, in the years after the eruption?
Do I like that the Brazilians (whom Obama loves and sends billions to) are mowing down some of the Amazon? Not at all. Do you? Is it okay to not be
environmentally concerned in the rest of the world, and only stifle activity in our country?
Why are we supporting Brazilian oil production (which is destroying the rain forests) instead of extracting our own oil that we are 'floating on',
here?!
Thank God that so much of North Dakota is in private ownership so the Obama government can't stop some of America from ending dependency! America has
suffered long enough... Let's not self destruct like what France is trying to do to itself: http://www.cbn.com/tv/3255110732001 |
Since you ascribe so much power to Obama, maybe you should be
giving him credit for the fact that domestic oil and gas production has risen significantly since he was elected. Most of the oil exploration in
Brazil is offshore. How does that destroy the rainforest?
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bonanza bucko
Every time I get lectured by somebody who touts man caused climate change I ask them if they can find the Great Lakes on a map. Some can believe it
or not!
Then I ask What dug 'em?
GLACIERS!
right!
WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
Melted. Wow!
WHAT CAUSED THAT?
GLOBAL WARMING!!!!
So what caused that?
Probably Cave men barbecuing too many Mastodons or maybe some Sabre toothed tigers had a bad attack of flatulence.
"Recon so...but I don't know"
BB:-) |
Ice ages have been advancing and retreating long before man was a twinkle in a gorilla's ancestor's eye---the basic force behind this is the Earth's
slight wobble over a 120,000 yr cycle (correct me if I don't have that number exactly). There is widespread agreement that temps are increasing a
bit, on average, however we are nearing the zenith of the interglacial period so warmer temps are normal. The last interglacial period peak sea
levels were 8 feet higher than now and there was more CO2. As far as I can tell, beyond the politics and hysteria of climate change, scientists are
trying to figure if we are accelerating this upswing, and if we are then we risk breeching the thermal and chemical buffers that would naturally keep
us in the normal glacial cycle.
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Whale-ista
the city of San Diego began draining water from lake Morena this year to supplement dwindling reserves.
This is a concern to residents and fishermen, as this article reports. The lake has lost 55% of its water, and a major fish kill is likely this summer.
Low lake levels are happening all over California. Many "lakes" are actually human-designed water reservoirs, designed to hold water for municipal
uses. But was the drought continues, we see the cupboard is almost bare... |
The article I posted a while back was very interesting. It talks about the fact that California would be far worse off from the drought if it still
relied on hydro electricity as so many of the lakes are down. It says the move to clean energy is one of the key reasons.
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Whale-ista
Super Nomad
Posts: 2009
Registered: 2-18-2013
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sunny with chance of whales
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I totally agree that climate change has happened since the planet was formed (anyone watching "Cosmos" on TV?) long before humans were around to
contribute to it, or worry about it.
The "Middle Age Warming" event was good for people- they were growing grapes in England, and Greenland was settled. One hundred years later the cold
climate returned, the grapes died, and people abandoned the Greenland settlements or froze to death.
Easy choices, and not a lot of humans around on the planet to be impacted or take detailed, science-based notes about what happened. They were more
worried about plague, inquisitions etc.
What has changed since then is the scale and scope human activity that exacerbates the effect. Also, the fact humans have constructed cities, roads,
housing, etc. based on certain temperature/climate/weather assumptions: sea/lake levels, storm intensity/duration/seasonality, availability of food,
average temperature variation.
We harvest fish from the seas based on assumptions about productivity that fluctuate over time. Add industrial-scale human harvesting and the lows get
lower, leading to fishing quotas.
We grow crops based on assumptions about rainfall/pollinators being readily available. As bees disappear and the rainfall declines, farms fail and
drought restrictions are implemented.
We raise livestock believing there will always be plenty of grazing land with available grass/water to feed them. The price of beef has collapsed and
ranchers can't afford to feed their cattle.
We build airports and design airplanes with certain meteorological ranges in mind. The heat in Phoenix results in the airport closing during the
afternoon in the summer months, cancelling flights or diverting them to other airports.
Adjust, adapt, move on. Just don't deny what's happening or argue about what's causing it. Make plans to manage the changes- add rainwater harvesting
to building designs. Rely more on solar/renewables and less on fuels that are more difficult to manage/obtain,
I completely agree that what we are seeing is "natural" and has happened many, many times before. The difference is: what happens now has an impact
on human design on a scale not experienced before, and causes expensive and at times dangerous situations to occur.
So, IMHO, it doesn't matter why this is happening, but it makes sense to plan accordingly to avoid expensive/dangerous situations from harming people
as we go forward.
\"Probably the airplanes will bring week-enders from Los Angeles before long, and the beautiful poor bedraggled old town will bloom with a
Floridian ugliness.\" (John Steinbeck, 1940, discussing the future of La Paz, BCS, Mexico)
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Whale-ista
the city of San Diego began draining water from lake Morena this year to supplement dwindling reserves.
This is a concern to residents and fishermen, as this article reports. The lake has lost 55% of its water, and a major fish kill is likely this summer.
Low lake levels are happening all over California. Many "lakes" are actually human-designed water reservoirs, designed to hold water for municipal
uses. But was the drought continues, we see the cupboard is almost bare... |
All the lakes of San Diego County, and SoCal in general, have a long history of this (and worse) happening-------drought & flood in SoCal is the
rule, not the exception. Tis the nature of the place.
http://www.wonews.com/Blog.aspx?id=743
http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/2002-1/hill.htm
Barry
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
Member Is Offline
Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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Draught Surplus Ends Drought (Until Start Of La Cruda)
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajaemma
Is this thread ending in a bar? Sometimes Pacifico can do that |
Rather than be a hypocrite my property is Michoacan is a jungle of planted flower, fruit trees, and shrubs. Here in BA even though I am here a short
while I have with the permission of the owner planted drought resistant trees, and shrubs. I would hate to think I engaged in talk about CO2, global
warming, and climate change while holding a TV remote control in one hand and a beer in the other. I wonder whom has actually participated in such
activities? Not landscaping done eight years ago - I mean recently.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18013
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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clearly, people that dispute the evidence that man's GHG emissions have affected climate are ignorant, delusional, or purposefully denying the
evidence for political reasons. you can't have a reasonable discussion about policy on GHG emissions with people that believe the evidence and
cause/effect are a pack of lies.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Whale-ista
I totally agree that climate change has happened since the planet was formed (anyone watching "Cosmos" on TV?) long before humans were around to
contribute to it, or worry about it.
The "Middle Age Warming" event was good for people- they were growing grapes in England, and Greenland was settled. One hundred years later the cold
climate returned, the grapes died, and people abandoned the Greenland settlements or froze to death.
Easy choices, and not a lot of humans around on the planet to be impacted or take detailed, science-based notes about what happened. They were more
worried about plague, inquisitions etc.
What has changed since then is the scale and scope human activity that exacerbates the effect. Also, the fact humans have constructed cities, roads,
housing, etc. based on certain temperature/climate/weather assumptions: sea/lake levels, storm intensity/duration/seasonality, availability of food,
average temperature variation.
We harvest fish from the seas based on assumptions about productivity that fluctuate over time. Add industrial-scale human harvesting and the lows get
lower, leading to fishing quotas.
We grow crops based on assumptions about rainfall/pollinators being readily available. As bees disappear and the rainfall declines, farms fail and
drought restrictions are implemented.
We raise livestock believing there will always be plenty of grazing land with available grass/water to feed them. The price of beef has collapsed and
ranchers can't afford to feed their cattle.
We build airports and design airplanes with certain meteorological ranges in mind. The heat in Phoenix results in the airport closing during the
afternoon in the summer months, cancelling flights or diverting them to other airports.
Adjust, adapt, move on. Just don't deny what's happening or argue about what's causing it. Make plans to manage the changes- add rainwater harvesting
to building designs. Rely more on solar/renewables and less on fuels that are more difficult to manage/obtain,
I completely agree that what we are seeing is "natural" and has happened many, many times before. The difference is: what happens now has an impact
on human design on a scale not experienced before, and causes expensive and at times dangerous situations to occur.
So, IMHO, it doesn't matter why this is happening, but it makes sense to plan accordingly to avoid expensive/dangerous situations from harming people
as we go forward. |
Excellent, Whale-ista, just EXCELLENT. Says it all, IMO.
Barry
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I suspect Detroit didn't help that water quality very much.
Tahoe is having water quality issues as well, BTW. |
Very true, but I am not at all sure that is what DianaT is talking about. Did primitive man "kill" the Great Lakes"?----I had not heard that. And
now modern man is doing it again? Is that her point, and if so just how did primitive man effect the Great Lakes? and what defines "killed"?
The Great Lakes were being polluted by modern man, but that is being largely rectified now, from what I understand. Lake Tahoe's problems are also
being rectified, and the lake's clarity is improving. We go there often, and it looks better to me tho I did not think it was that bad in the first
place. Lake Tahoe is unique, and largely a nearly-closed water-system with relatively little runoff, either in or out, and therefore somewhat
fragile---------the Great Lakes are very dynamic due to the huge volume of water involved, flowing in and out.
It is obvious to me that Government and Industries intervention in the increasing polution of the waters by man was necessary at both places, I will
admit. I just think that DianaT exagerated things a bit, never a good idea, IMO, as it erodes credibility.
Barry |
Who said anything about primitive man????
And as far as the pollution increasing today, you could simply check that out, or you can reduce your answer to a personal attack. That is the end of
any attempt at a civil discussion. Ni modo Done
[Edited on 3-14-2014 by DianaT]
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BajaLuna
Senior Nomad
Posts: 581
Registered: 12-5-2012
Location: Pacific Northwest/Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
Mood: groovy
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WessonGroup: Cool that you SQ FT garden, it's a great method! We do that too in (16) 4x8 raised beds. I'm not an in-the-ground row gardener, got a bad
knee!
LOL about the bacon seeds, we often laugh about that, if only we could plant us some bacon! I have enough room for a couple of pigs, but we travel a
lot and because of that had to get rid of our goats. If we could get them automatically watered and fed too, LOL, then that would be sweet! Our laying
chickens are fine being left alone and only checked on twice a week while we are gone. They don't scarf down their entire food in a few minutes like
pigs do! We sometimes trade our veggies, blueberries, and raspberries for meat with friends, who raise organic chickens, rabbits and turkeys.
Trading is where it's at, one does not need to grow everything they eat or every type of veggie they like, just need to get involved in exchanging
with other backyard food growers OR get a membership in a CSA (community supported agriculture) program. They are everywhere up here, and we sometimes
get our veggies from there as well. Also up here there is a lot of pea patches going on, people who have land open it up to rent some space to people
who want to grow a garden! More and more churches are doing that up here on their land. If one wants to grow, they can find a way, there are many
options!
Whale-ista: that's good to hear there is rebating going on down there, that really helps people out and promotes conservation! Love what you are doing
with rain catching, you GO GIRL! We are putting in a rain catch system at our house this year, although we are on a well that is tapped into a HUGE
and powerful aquifer, we still feel passionate about catching all the rain we get, and we get ALOT and it is such a waste not to be using the rain!! I
too, am wanting to see a gardening board on BN, learning about growing citrus, fruits and all kinds of things down in Baja would be awesome, although
I have grown food for years, do composting too...Baja gardening and growing in the salt air and desert climates is something I am eager to learn!
DavidK: You say there is not currently a water problem in SD, and although I understand you got that from good authority, but who in their right mind
believes that load of crap, of course there IS a problem, perhaps it isn't an emergency at this point, but it will be if they keep doing what they've
been doing IE: not getting serious about it NOW. It just makes sense to me to prepare for it, Crisis governing is not the answer, and in my mind if
they started now with odd/even days for watering then perhaps they can avoid a bigger problem down the road. When we lived there we were not
inconvenienced whatsoever with the rationing, my garden still got watered just fine. pee poor planning is not acceptable, they need to get their heads
out of the sand and plug into reality! What are they waiting for?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64705
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
| Quote: | Originally posted by bonanza bucko
Every time I get lectured by somebody who touts man caused climate change I ask them if they can find the Great Lakes on a map. Some can believe it
or not!
Then I ask What dug 'em?
GLACIERS!
right!
WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
Melted. Wow!
WHAT CAUSED THAT?
GLOBAL WARMING!!!!
So what caused that?
Probably Cave men barbecuing too many Mastodons or maybe some Sabre toothed tigers had a bad attack of flatulence.
"Recon so...but I don't know"
BB:-) |
Ice ages have been advancing and retreating long before man was a twinkle in a gorilla's ancestor's eye---the basic force behind this is the Earth's
slight wobble over a 120,000 yr cycle (correct me if I don't have that number exactly). There is widespread agreement that temps are increasing a
bit, on average, however we are nearing the zenith of the interglacial period so warmer temps are normal. The last interglacial period peak sea
levels were 8 feet higher than now and there was more CO2. As far as I can tell, beyond the politics and hysteria of climate change, scientists are
trying to figure if we are accelerating this upswing, and if we are then we risk breeching the thermal and chemical buffers that would naturally keep
us in the normal glacial cycle. |
Thank you Steve... have a great day!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64705
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaLuna
DavidK: You say there is not currently a water problem in SD, and although I understand you got that from good authority, but who in their right mind
believes that load of crap, of course there IS a problem, perhaps it isn't an emergency at this point, but it will be if they keep doing what they've
been doing IE: not getting serious about it NOW. It just makes sense to me to prepare for it, Crisis governing is not the answer, and in my mind if
they started now with odd/even days for watering then perhaps they can avoid a bigger problem down the road. When we lived there we were not
inconvenienced whatsoever with the rationing, my garden still got watered just fine. pee poor planning is not acceptable, they need to get their heads
out of the sand and plug into reality! What are they waiting for? |
I am trying to be clear, but I know we all hear things differently... let me try once more...
It was asked if we here in San Diego area were on restricted water use (odd/ even days).
I answered with what was told to us by the water authority: NO we are not BECAUSE the water sources for us are NOT in that bad of shape (yet).
This is NOT my personal belief, politics or otherwise... It was on the news and answered the question if we were on rationing like a few years ago...
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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With Brown and the government making the proclamation and stepping in, it means some financial relief in the form of low interest loans to many
farmers who have been hurt.
It has also led to some places putting in mandatory water conservation requirements and other areas doing it on a voluntary basis. Unfortunately,
some areas will not restrict the use of water not considering what that does to other parts of the state.
When water considerations become severe enough, cities like Santa Barbara act.
In Brown's proclamation, he talked about it raining again --- there is no money grabbing scheme, just a desire to help out some of those hurting from
the drought and MAYBE get people to conserve more and more.
The farmers in the San Quintin valley in Baja only started to conserve and began to use desal water after they depleted the ground water to the point
of it becoming far too saline.
Hopefully, prevention will become the wave of the future rather than crisis management.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaLuna
DavidK: You say there is not currently a water problem in SD, and although I understand you got that from good authority, but who in their right mind
believes that load of crap, of course there IS a problem, perhaps it isn't an emergency at this point, but it will be if they keep doing what they've
been doing IE: not getting serious about it NOW. It just makes sense to me to prepare for it, Crisis governing is not the answer, and in my mind if
they started now with odd/even days for watering then perhaps they can avoid a bigger problem down the road. When we lived there we were not
inconvenienced whatsoever with the rationing, my garden still got watered just fine. pee poor planning is not acceptable, they need to get their heads
out of the sand and plug into reality! What are they waiting for? |
I am trying to be clear, but I know we all hear things differently... let me try once more...
It was asked if we here in San Diego area were on restricted water use (odd/ even days).
I answered with what was told to us by the water authority: NO we are not BECAUSE the water sources for us are NOT in that bad of shape (yet).
This is NOT my personal belief, politics or otherwise... It was on the news and answered the question if we were on rationing like a few years ago...
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I believe you said local sources. You are no longer disputing that 80% of the water is imported? And generally,,, when someone says something,
do you verify that it is factual?
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I suspect Detroit didn't help that water quality very much.
Tahoe is having water quality issues as well, BTW. |
Very true, but I am not at all sure that is what DianaT is talking about. Did primitive man "kill" the Great Lakes"?----I had not heard that. And
now modern man is doing it again? Is that her point, and if so just how did primitive man effect the Great Lakes? and what defines "killed"?
The Great Lakes were being polluted by modern man, but that is being largely rectified now, from what I understand. Lake Tahoe's problems are also
being rectified, and the lake's clarity is improving. We go there often, and it looks better to me tho I did not think it was that bad in the first
place. Lake Tahoe is unique, and largely a nearly-closed water-system with relatively little runoff, either in or out, and therefore somewhat
fragile---------the Great Lakes are very dynamic due to the huge volume of water involved, flowing in and out.
It is obvious to me that Government and Industries intervention in the increasing polution of the waters by man was necessary at both places, I will
admit. I just think that DianaT exagerated things a bit, never a good idea, IMO, as it erodes credibility.
Barry |
Who said anything about primitive man????
And as far as the pollution increasing today, you could simply check that out, or you can reduce your answer to a personal attack. That is the end of
any attempt at a civil discussion. Ni modo Done
[Edited on 3-14-2014 by DianaT] |
"Personal attack"???????? I apologize if what I said appeared as a "personal attack"------that was not intended. I was simply questioning some of
your statements above for clarification, and /or references as I did not understand them.
Barry
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64705
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Then he should let the farmers in the Central Valley have their water back so they can grow food again. Brown has caused that part of the state to
turn brown... and for what, a mosquito or bird that can fly somewhere else if it wants to. Nature isn't stupid, but some politicians and the people
who elect them are.
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