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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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They're scratching something but it ain't their heads
And they couldn't find 'em if you drew a map.
| Quote: | Originally posted by oldhippie
But come on, windmills in Mexico?? Mexico has the second largest oil reserves in this hemisphere, second to Venezuela, and obviously air pollution is
not a top priority. AND their oil is worth $65 a barrel!! The guys at Pemex must be really scratching their heads wondering what the crazy gringos
will do next.
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Tough to sell oil when you can't get it out of the ground. Five years ago it was estimated that Mexico, even with its considerable reserves, would
become a net importer by 2015. This year industry estimates have been revised.... to 2013.
We should all pray for wind. 
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djh
Senior Nomad
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
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WIND
There's sure a LOT of hot air being released by the LB promoters.
Maybe we can harness THAT !
(Like.... with a muzzle ? ? )
djh
BTW, Oldhippie, don't you dare stop writing ! Good research !
[Edited on 4-21-2007 by djh]
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
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Phil S
Super Nomad
Posts: 1205
Registered: 10-28-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: After 34 years. Still in love w/ my wife
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Old Hippie. Have re read your comments regarding Loreto Bay three times. I think I have a pretty good picture of where your coming from. Correctly
if I'm wrong.
You have a good investigative background. i.e. police or insurance background?
You appear to be thorough when you 'look into' a subject. (this led me to go to the Econergy site you gave us. I read what they are doing. But I
must have missed something that you saw that makes them a bad choice for the Loreto Bay Co.s wind generator project!! You said that they were
"financing" this project for Loreto Bay????? I couldn't find anything in their documentation that says "they are the money behind the project"??
I'm confused about your statement about Pemex in relation to the wind generator project of Loreto Bay? Elaborate please. If Loreto Bay wants to do
"clear electricity" how does Pemex enter here?
Your interests in doing a website to "expose these con artists" leaves me to wonder how those 1,400 workers that are supporting families &
themselves would feel, hearing this!!!! Also the contractors who are hiring these workers. And the grocery stores that are selling them food, &
liquids. And the car dealers that are selling them cars. And the clothing stores (used/new) who are relying on them to have money to support Their
families. And the domino's will fall. All because of someone who lives???? in Tijuana has taken it upon himself to "expose" these folks????
Where is this coming from???? Are you conscience driven? Or is there anything in your background that has caused you want to do this?????
And please don't stop posting. This is an open forum, and everyones postings represent our "rights to express ourselves". Just having a little more
information from you might help me understand where your coming from. Thank.
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
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Phil S, If you look back to Old Hippie's post of 4-20 at 7:53 am, you will see that his background is in science and engineering, not police work or
insurance. As you say that you've read his comments 3 times, I'm surprised that you missed this. And I surely don't understand justifying the
greenwashing and as yet unfullfilled promises of the developers by implying that a large number of workers and business people would condone this
behavior. If "the dominoes fall" it will be due to the fact that Loreto Bay has engaged in deception, and not because of one person who "has taken
it upon himself to 'expose' these folks".
Old Hippie, thank you for your well researched, clear, level-headed posts. I hope we hear more from you...
Mind you, I'm not taking sides here, just calling it as I see it  
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Phil S
Super Nomad
Posts: 1205
Registered: 10-28-2003
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Mood: After 34 years. Still in love w/ my wife
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Paula. Thank you for answering Old Hippies working background for him. I just read into page 9, and gathered my info from there. I wasn't interested
in melting ice/raising water levels, so must have skimmed over that one. Well, with his being an engineer, and my many friends who are retired
engineers, and as thorough as they are, it's kind of hand in hand for the police background/investigation that I was thinking he must have been. He's
certainly very thorough in his comments. But I will hold firm on my thoughts about anyone trying to destroy Loreto Bay because of whatever their
reasons may be. Many people would be hurt by him if he were to succeed in his website who are dependant upon Loreto Bay for their lively hood. Hold
down the fort until we return, Paula & husband Don Alley sometime in October.
[Edited on 4-22-2007 by Phil S]
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Phil S
...But I will hold firm on my thoughts about anyone trying to destroy Loreto Bay because of whatever their reasons may be. Many people would be hurt
by him if he were to succeed in his website who are dependant upon Loreto Bay for their lively hood. Hold down the fort until we return, Paula &
husband Don Alley sometime in October.
[Edited on 4-22-2007 by Phil S] |
Uh oh. Sounds like big trouble for Loreto Bay. Old Hippie is on their case, and Paula and I are holding down the fort. 
"Hey Paula, I thought tonight was your turn to hold down the fort."
"NO, I held it down last night."
"Did not."
"Did so."
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Phil, When the people of, lets say, Camel's Breath, Arkansas learn that a Wallyworld or Supersuncity has purchased half the county and plans to change
their little town forever, they usually react with special web sites, protests, townhall meetings, political push groups, hand-outs; anything that
will make the regulators and developers stop, look and listen to their concerns. That's a fair and healthy process, seems to me. I don't think the
old folks who are agin it should be allowed to lie about what they think the future will be -- hence I don't think the developers should be allowed to
go way over the line in promises like these folks have -- it's obvious there will be a giant gap between "what they plan to do" and the availability
of clear, clean water for everyone. Before the dust settles on this thing I think the buyers with dry water lines and no hope for a drop from
anywhere will make their concerns known in lots of ways.
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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Phil, do you stand to lose money on your home if Loreto Bay fails? I know you had a home in Nopolo a few year back.
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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4459
Registered: 3-11-2004
Location: South of the broder
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The truth should always be available. Anything built on lies will eventually fail. My opinion on Loreto Bay - ????????????? - I don't have a dog in
this fight.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Don, you da man!
I am impressed with your informative posts. These are exactly the kind of sources and info we are seeking.
The real shame of this whole project with LB is most certainly the lies and deceit foisted upon everyone. This marriage between Fonatur and Big
Corporation exemplifies their(LBC) ability to overrule, overrun and overdo everything in the path of their objective. This includes railroading
stockholders, contractors, govt officials, investors and the general public. Let us not forget how the media promotes LBC. They have no clue except
what is spoon-fed them. Must be nice to have mags and rags promoting your lies. They make everything sound so real, so factual. Excuse me while I go
So how do you counter such an adversary?
Wait, there WILL be more. But how and why, you ask?
"Ours' is not to question" someone once said.
Now get it!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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Mood: muted
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This document addresses the Econergy's investment into the "Baja California del Sur" windmill project via the private closed fund they run for venture
capitalists and also speaks to their operating loss, albeit from 2005. BTW the name of the project changes in different documents.
http://www.econergy.net/Asp/DisplayPDF.Asp?NUMBER=270
It also speaks to the cash they raised, $95.7 million, with their IPO in the London Stock Exchange's Alternative Investment Market (AIM) sector. Money
is a good thing as long as it is spent/invested wisely. And it's good they are publically traded because that gives those who have a stake in their
business an avenue to find information via public records.
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/en-gb/products/companyser...
They are definitely "money guys" looking to profit from, as Jane Bryant Quinn calls in this week's Newsweek, "save the planet investing". She's a
smart cookie BTW. Also stated in the article is that "green funds" have gone from $176 million in assets in 2000 to $1.4 billion in 2006. I may jump
on that bandwagon today.
Energy produced by alternative methods such as wind and solar is typically fed into the "power grid" thereby decreasing the percentage of power
available that is generated by buring fossil fuels and fissioning uranium nuclei. I suppose you could rig up a pure wind/solar system but what to do
when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining is a big problem. Plus a dinky windmill power plant on the west coast to power a resort on the
east coast doesn't make much sense to me.
I imagine some are surprised at my mention of nuclear power. Well, there are 435 nukes worldwide quietly pumping out mucho juice and not emitting one
ounce of greenhouse gases. When was the last time there was a problem with those? 25 years ago? The industry is now ramping up, with oil seeming
stabililized at 3 times what it was not very long ago, there are more on the way. Let's not get into the nuclear debate.
So anyway, those of you who thing that LB is being powered by wind energy alone are mistaken (I think). But the mistake is understandable given that
is what the LB marketing materials lead you to believe.
Pemex (government owned) provides the fuel to the government owned CFE who runs the power plants and the grid. They will be a part of any generating
facility in Mexico, regardless of the energy source. Fox pushed initiatives to privatize the electric power industry and I imagine Calderon is
following up. We'll see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comisi%C3%B3n_Federal_de_Electr...
The Harvard Loreto Bay study I provided a link to draws the fundamental conclusion that if short term profits instead of long term planning take
precedence EVERYBODY, investors and townspeople alike, will suffer. What do you think will be the driving force? A quick buck or the welfare of future
generations? LB marketers claim the latter. Yeah sure.
I gotta go and make some money so I can buy a condo in LB and attack it from the inside. Don't worry I'll sell just before it goes bust.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: muted
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Phil S,
You asked:
"Where is this coming from???? Are you conscience driven? Or is there anything in your background that has caused you want to do this?????"
Reason and logic are my religion. Unreasonable, illogical things drive me crazy.
What could be more absurd than a golf course in a sun baked, bone dry desert?
I just swept the floor in my kitchen and used the latest LB flyer I received in the mail as a dustpan. It worked well, I'm glad they're using that
expensive, stiff paperstock for their multi-colored brochures. Pictured on it, among other things, is the golf course. Who's that golf course for? The
locals? It won't even be a pleasant place to play golf. Yep, that's true eco-tourism, which is an oxymarooonish term that also drives me crazy.
Could the water and land the golf course consumes be used perhaps to grow food? What a novel idea, irrigate the land, grow food, and sell it. That's
certainly a better way to raise the standard of living and grow a community.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: muted
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As we all know, legend has it when Willy Sutton was asked why he robbed banks, he said "that's where the money is".
Well stupid me should have applied Sutton's crystal clear logic to the question why are they building wind generators on the west coast for an east
coast facility. Why? Because that's where the wind is, of course.
This map shows that the San Carlos area is a moderately good place for a wind farm. As is, it turns out, where I live. I think I'll get a small
turbine to charge up my wife's batteries.
http://www.re.sandia.gov/en/ti/rm/windclassap3-5.1.pdf
More interesting info for the technically inclined. Including the cost/kilowatt to build a wind farm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power
I'm changing my opinion about wind power, afterall it's heaven for whirligig enthusiasts like myself.
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bajashar
Newbie
Posts: 4
Registered: 5-3-2007
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I've just read over many of the post in this thread. Very interesting...makes one think.
This is a bit off the usual theme here, but does anyone have information on Loreto Bay's sales process? Even perhaps a flow diagram? Or somewhere I
can find this information?
I'm researching their over all processes for finding potential buyers and the steps and tactics of closing in on the sale (how and where they generate
sales leads, how they convince those leads to go see the site, what processes and techniques they use when they have the leads down there, how they
select and motivate US and Canadian realtors, how they manage the field sales people, etc).
I've searched pretty extensively the internet, but can't find a thing....must be well hidden away.
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Bajalero
Nomad
Posts: 316
Registered: 11-24-2003
Location: todos santos/ rcho san diego
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Anyone have an idea what this statement is all about?
http://www.econergy.com/investor_relations/index.html
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3821
Registered: 2-9-2004
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bajashar: I live in San Diego, one of the cities that LB has a sales office. In the past, LB has put a flyer in the SD Sunday paper. I have also
gotten a presentation invitation addressed to me specifically. That may be because I have attended in the past. They schedule a promotion evening at
a fancy restaurant and show a film and talk all about the beach club, the wine cellar, the theatre, blah, blah. Interested persons can sign up and
pay $XX for a (I think) 2-day trip to LB (not any bargain price for sure). You are required to put down a $5,000 deposit before you go see the
development or are given any actual information. There is no Q&A session at the restaurant presentations - they just repeat the same
sustainable/stunning beauty mantras and begin to concoct the dream that they hope you'll (literally) buy into. They schedule tours several times a
year. There are photos in www.flicker.com (above) showing how they drive around the potential buyers in golf carts within the development. They have a sales office at The
Inn at Loreto Bay (El Posada a Bahia Loreto as I like to call it) and in town. They plan a dinner so all the potential buyers can hype themselves up
and see what great neighbors they'll be for each other and so they can tell each other they're doing the right thing. I would imagine that scenario
plays out in Victoria, BC and Scottsdale where they also have offices. I saw a full page ad in the Alaska Airlines in-flight magazine couple weeks
ago. There are online ads in the websites featuring Baja and Mexican real estate and development. Why don't you call and express an interest and see
what they tell you. 1-866-956-7386. They also have a sales office in Mexico City. Ask them what percentage of Mexican citizens have purchased a unit.
Essentially, because a purchase of this sort is governed by the heart and not logic, they need to spin their web close to the fly.
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bajabeachbabe
Nomad
Posts: 150
Registered: 9-11-2006
Location: Loreto,
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving life
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Bajashar, we have received numerous mailings from them in the past three years. They send a DVD in a fancy mailer. The original mailing was a
large package inviting us to attend a local meeting. Ironically, it was LB's mailing that even clued us in to Loreto. Our own trip last year
confirmed for us that Loreto was indeed a place that we wanted to set down roots. However, LB is certainly not our cup of tea.
Surprisingly on our last two trips to Loreto, when we returned home, there in our held mail, was another advertisement mailing from Loreto Bay! I'm
starting to think they are tracking us!
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Bajalero
Nomad
Posts: 316
Registered: 11-24-2003
Location: todos santos/ rcho san diego
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
bajashar: I live in San Diego, one of the cities that LB has a sales office. In the past, LB has put a flyer in the SD Sunday paper. I have also
gotten a presentation invitation addressed to me specifically. That may be because I have attended in the past. They schedule a promotion evening at
a fancy restaurant and show a film and talk all about the beach club, the wine cellar, the theatre, blah, blah. Interested persons can sign up and
pay $XX for a (I think) 2-day trip to LB (not any bargain price for sure). You are required to put down a $5,000 deposit before you go see the
development or are given any actual information. There is no Q&A session at the restaurant presentations - they just repeat the same
sustainable/stunning beauty mantras and begin to concoct the dream that they hope you'll (literally) buy into. They schedule tours several times a
year. There are photos in www.flicker.com (above) showing how they drive around the potential buyers in golf carts within the development. They have a sales office at The
Inn at Loreto Bay (El Posada a Bahia Loreto as I like to call it) and in town. They plan a dinner so all the potential buyers can hype themselves up
and see what great neighbors they'll be for each other and so they can tell each other they're doing the right thing. I would imagine that scenario
plays out in Victoria, BC and Scottsdale where they also have offices. I saw a full page ad in the Alaska Airlines in-flight magazine couple weeks
ago. There are online ads in the websites featuring Baja and Mexican real estate and development. Why don't you call and express an interest and see
what they tell you. 1-866-956-7386. They also have a sales office in Mexico City. Ask them what percentage of Mexican citizens have purchased a unit.
Essentially, because a purchase of this sort is governed by the heart and not logic, they need to spin their web close to the fly.
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Talk about RED FLAG
Any one who is asked to pay upfront money for a look see should take a close look at things before they invest
[Edited on 5-4-2007 by Bajalero]
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bajashar
Newbie
Posts: 4
Registered: 5-3-2007
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Thanks for the replies concerning their sales ad marketing process. I wonder how successful they are at closing sales once they get people down there.
Do you know what happens to the $5000 deposit, what does it cover? Is that partially to cover travel expenses, or do you pay for you travel separately
on your own?
Do you get any of the $5000 deposit back if you decide not to buy? (or even if you buy?)
I know that the $5000 amount is typical for a lot of the condo communities being developed in Baja. In many cases, once the person goes to the site
and then decides not to buy, they get it refunded. I believe it is a way to target only those people who are really serious at considering a purchase.
I also attended a local meeting. It was interesting because I was braced to be bombarded with hard-core sales tactics, but that didn’t happen. We
entered, signed in, picked up some marketing materials, ate a bit, listened to the presentation with video, listened to Q&A where several buyers
made statements of what a great decision they made, and then it was over. No Loreto Bay person approached us the entire time, even on our way out. In
fact, I saw no one approached; there were several couple with the same reaction as mine. I don’t know if Loreto Bay just didn’t do a good job, didn’t
have enough sales people there, or if that is their tactic to not appear hard selling.
Bajabeachbabe, when you went to Loreto was it part of the Loreto Bay sales event? If yes, did you feel really pressured?
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajabeachbabe
Ironically, it was LB's mailing that even clued us in to Loreto. Our own trip last year confirmed for us that Loreto was indeed a place that we
wanted to set down roots. However, LB is certainly not our cup of tea... |
Well, that's another thing about Loreto Bay. Their big promotional budget has helped promote Puerto Paraiso, Golden Beach, the Villas development at
Puerto Escondido, and many individual projects. Until someone was willing and able to step up to the plate with a big promotional budget, Fonatur's
Loreto plans were in a coma.
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