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Author: Subject: The palm tree is going two feet under water
surabi
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 12:42 PM


I guess you engineers don't understand the concept that lessening a problem by 14% is preferable to doing nothing. Nor do you seem to understand that the more countries that lead by example, it makes other countries look bad on the world stage, puts pressure on them to follow suit and they will eventually get onboard.
And China's emission levels are due to all the products manufactured for world distribution, not for the Chinese. Their emission levels would go down if the rest if the world stopped buying made in China crap.
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 12:57 PM


Thanks surabi, I didn't want to make the effort to explain the obvious.

Engineers.......

A mathematician, a scientist, and an engineer were all to be put to death by a guillotine. If the guillotine failed, they would be freed.

The mathematician lies down, and the blade jams - he's freed.
The scientist lies down, and the blade jams - he's freed.
As the engineer approaches the guillotine, he points to the blade and screams, "I see what's wrong!"

Some can't see the forest through the trees.

[Edited on 9-24-2023 by SFandH]




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surabi
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 01:18 PM


Following the deniers' line of thinking, if your whole house air conditioning system went on the blink, but you could manage to get it working in one room, it wouldn't be worthwhile to do that, because it didn't solve the entire problem.
Or if you had a medical issue that was causing you pain, it wouldn't be worthwhile to lessen the pain by 14%, because you would still have some pain.
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surabi
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 02:51 PM


:barf::barf:"You guys do nothing outside of your keyboard to actually make a difference in the world."

And you know this exactly how? In fact, it's just another of your beliefs based on nothing but your own prejudice and presumptions. These unsupported beliefs are a handy way of absolving yourself from not giving a damn, or doing anything to mitigate your environmental impact. Just convince yourself that no one else makes an effort- whether that's true or not is immaterial to you. You obviously need to believe it.

Just like homophobes need to convince themselves that gays are groomers and that being attracted to someone of the same sex is unnatural and sick, otherwise they would have no explainable basis for their prejudice.

[Edited on 9-24-2023 by surabi]

[Edited on 9-24-2023 by surabi]
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surabi
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 03:57 PM


I didn't say I was "doing my best". Putting words in other people's mouths doesn't support one's opinions.
I said we do as much as possible, and everyone's ideas about what is possible for them varies, depending on their circumstances.

If I lived in an urban center with good public transportation, I wouldn't have a car, or at least never drive it unless I needed to go out of town. But I live where I need a vehicle. Therefore I am careful to make lists of things I need to buy, so I can drive as little as possible, cramming all my shopping into one trip rather than running out for something every day.

The point, which you refuse to acknowledge, is that doing something is better than doing nothing.
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 04:24 PM


Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
I didn't say I was "doing my best". Putting words in other people's mouths doesn't support one's opinions.
I said we do as much as possible, and everyone's ideas about what is possible for them varies, depending on their circumstances.

If I lived in an urban center with good public transportation, I wouldn't have a car, or at least never drive it unless I needed to go out of town. But I live where I need a vehicle. Therefore I am careful to make lists of things I need to buy, so I can drive as little as possible, cramming all my shopping into one trip rather than running out for something every day.

The point, which you refuse to acknowledge, is that doing something is better than doing nothing.


Typical cop out. Yeah, you want to tell others how to live and claim you are doing everything “possible”.

How would you feel if someone forced you to move to a new location and live in a small space and do your shopping, etc on foot?

That would be ok?

Reason I ask is because I know you dont want to change your lifestyle to improve the planet. You make excuses for having a car, riding a plane, etc…..

You are the ultimate hypocrite with control
issues.
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 05:37 PM


"Mankind has the ability to alter the climate, and in a positive way.

The palm tree in the Bay of Concepcion and high tides in Del Mar are irrelative. The polar regions already are suffering. Some of the Pacific islands are suffering."

Let's say all of you climate change fanatics are correct that CO2 is altering the earth s climate. What evidence do you have that the changes aren't overall positive? NOAA has concluded that the planet is more productive in plant growth than ever before.....why is it necessarily a "catastrophic" change?

You say some of the Pacific islands are suffering....which ones? What suffering -specifically- are they encountering? I've worked 6 months a year, for several years, on a small Pacific atoll where the maximum altitude is 30' and that was man made in WW2. Do you know the evolution of atolls? They rise out of the sea in volcanic eruptions & because of their mass slowly sink back into the seabed with or without CO2. So what specific provable facts do you have that climate change is causing suffering on Pacific Isles?

And please... don't say that hurricanes are more powerful or that specific weather events are your proof. If a "denialist" ever points to specifically cooler weather occurances you scream that specific weather occurances aren't proof of anything.


[Edited on 9-25-2023 by lewmt]
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surabi
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 06:10 PM


Your very first sentence makes all you have to say after that not worth reading. Labelling people who have different ideas and beliefs and attitudes as "fanatics" is what people who have nothing real to support their point of view do.
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 06:27 PM


Quote: Originally posted by lewmt  
"Mankind has the ability to alter the climate, and in a positive way.

The palm tree in the Bay of Concepcion and high tides in Del Mar are irrelative. The polar regions already are suffering. Some of the Pacific islands are suffering."

Let's say all of you climate change fanatics are correct that CO2 is altering the earth s climate. What evidence do you have that the changes aren't overall positive? NOAA has concluded that the planet is more productive in plant growth than ever before.....why is it necessarily a "catastrophic" change?

You say some of the Pacific islands are suffering....which ones? What suffering -specifically- are they encountering? I've worked 6 months a year, for several years, on a small Pacific atoll where the maximum altitude is 30' and that was man made in WW2. Do you know the evolution of atolls? They rise out of the sea in volcanic eruptions & because of their mass slowly sink back into the seabed with or without CO2. So what specific provable facts do you have that climate change is causing suffering on Pacific Isles?

And please... don't say that hurricanes are more powerful or that specific weather events are your proof. If a "denialist" ever points to specifically cooler weather occurances you scream that specific weather occurances aren't proof of anything.


[Edited on 9-25-2023 by lewmt]


lets go back to your "first hand" experience climbing and snowboarding Jackson and Blackfoot glacier, your argument was "see, same as it ever was, even better!" are we to believe atoll lewmt or....NASA?
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/world-of-change/glacier.ph...




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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 06:45 PM


S,

I guess that you don’t understand that to “reduce the problem by 14% in a single stroke would destroy the US economy. That would certainly make some happy.

You totally ignore the Methane problem. Methane is a far more powerful green house gas than is CO2. But then Russia is the largest Methane polluter isn’t it?

A plan for a planet requires a planet full of people to solve the problem not just a single country. That especially true when the major polluters don’t get along with the US.
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 06:57 PM


Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
S,

I guess that you don’t understand that to “reduce the problem by 14% in a single stroke would destroy the US economy. That would certainly make some happy.

You totally ignore the Methane problem. Methane is a far more powerful green house gas than is CO2. But then Russia is the largest Methane polluter isn’t it?

A plan for a planet requires a planet full of people to solve the problem not just a single country. That especially true when the major polluters don’t get along with the US.



do you just sit around in your metal box and make this chit up?


sorry that was harsh.....lets start with russia?


[Edited on 9-25-2023 by Don Pisto]




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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 07:08 PM
Methane Polluters


DP,

Yes, in fact the “bread box has full AC (Solar 95%) The baking bread smells great (solar 100%)!

Here you go. Start with Russia!

IMG_4568.jpeg - 130kB

[Edited on 9-25-2023 by RFClark]
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surabi
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 07:17 PM


Who exactly has advocated eliminating all of the US carbon emissions in a single stroke? Don't be ridiculous. All climate change activism is geared towards transition to alternative energy, as soon as practically possible. And changing people's attitudes and consumption habits.

Start with Russia? Because they produce .74 more methane the the US, which produces far more than many of the other countries on your list put together? You sound like a child. "Johnny ate 5 cookies before dinner and I only ate 4, so he should be the only one who gets in trouble for eating cookies before dinner."

And there is a planet full of people who want a plan for the planet to become healthier. There are climate activists almost everywhere, even in countries that "don't get along with the US". Do you really think people in India don't care that it's been so unprecedently hot in parts of their country that many people died from the heat?

Meaningful change always starts at the grassroots level, not on a global scale. People have much more influence individually in their own communities than on a state or federal or global level. You can't pick up the phone and call the President of the country, but you can call your local town representative and make your voice heard.

Something as simple as municipalities charging for the number of full garbage bags people put out on garbage day leads to more people reducing the amount of overpackaged goods they buy, recycling what can be recycled, and therefore reducing the amount of unrecyclable garbage in the landfill. Improving public transportation on a local level, putting in bike lanes and bike racks leads to less people driving cars.


[Edited on 9-25-2023 by surabi]

[Edited on 9-25-2023 by surabi]
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lewmt
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 07:36 PM


Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Your very first sentence makes all you have to say after that not worth reading. Labelling people who have different ideas and beliefs and attitudes as "fanatics" is what people who have nothing real to support their point of view do.


Well all of your posts on this subject Surabi indicate you are quite a fanatic on the subject. I asked legitimate questions....you just obfuscate and divert. You are a fantaic as is Goat & several others in that you are willing to subjugate your freedoms for a crisis that may not even be a crisis...hence the questions.

[Edited on 9-25-2023 by lewmt]
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RFClark
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 07:36 PM


S,

Since we only account for 14% how else would you get a 14% reduction prior to 2050?

You think there are people among our enemies who will help?

Russia poisons, shoots and otherwise liquidates “activists”.

China disappears activists and harvests their organs.

India and Canada are currently quarreling over a conveniently dead activist.

Iran beats activists, shoots, protesters and sells the falsely jailed for cash.

[Edited on 9-25-2023 by RFClark]
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lewmt
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 07:46 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Don Pisto  
Quote: Originally posted by lewmt  
"Mankind has the ability to alter the climate, and in a positive way.

The palm tree in the Bay of Concepcion and high tides in Del Mar are irrelative. The polar regions already are suffering. Some of the Pacific islands are suffering."

Let's say all of you climate change fanatics are correct that CO2 is altering the earth s climate. What evidence do you have that the changes aren't overall positive? NOAA has concluded that the planet is more productive in plant growth than ever before.....why is it necessarily a "catastrophic" change?

You say some of the Pacific islands are suffering....which ones? What suffering -


specifically- are they encountering? I've worked 6 months a year, for several years, on a small Pacific atoll where the maximum altitude is 30' and that was man made in WW2. Do you know the evolution of atolls? They rise out of the sea in volcanic eruptions & because of their mass slowly sink back into the seabed with or without CO2. So what specific provable facts do you have that climate change is causing suffering on Pacific Isles?

And please... don't say that hurricanes are more powerful or that specific weather events are your proof. If a "denialist" ever points to specifically cooler weather occurances you scream that specific weather occurances aren't proof of anything.


[Edited on 9-25-2023 by lewmt]


lets go back to your "first hand" experience climbing and snowboarding Jackson and Blackfoot glacier, your argument was "see, same as it ever was, even better!" are we to believe atoll lewmt or....NASA?
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/world-of-change/glacier.ph...


If you are questioning whether my experiences are real...since you don't know me you have no way of knowing whether they are or not. I can't prove them true but i can say honestly that they are. The fact that I have climbed and descended glaciers in GNP doesn't preclude my ability to work on a remote Pacific atoll. Both things are true & accurate.

I'm not sure why climate change fanatics never answer questions directly. They just subvert the questioner & divert the message. That NOAA has models which show shrinking glaciers is fine...they have also published research showing the net plant growth in the world expanding....I doubt there will be anything close to a thoughtful response to this either

[Edited on 9-25-2023 by lewmt]
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 07:48 PM


Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
DP,

Yes, in fact the “bread box has full AC (Solar 95%) The baking bread smells great (solar 100%)!

Here you go. Start with Russia!



[Edited on 9-25-2023 by RFClark]


thats a wonderful graph there RF...methane produced by oil and gas production. doesn't address the bulk from AGRICULTURE and human waste does it??




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surabi
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 07:56 PM


Quote: Originally posted by lewmt  
...in that you are willing to subjugate your freedoms for a crisis that may not even be a crisis.


I don't consider trying to do my part to make the planet a cleaner, more habitable place to be "subjugating my freedoms", regardless of how much of a crisis it is or will be. I've never heard of "freedom to pollute". And how anyone can see photos of acres of plastic floating in the ocean and read about animals dying from their intestines being clogged with human-produced garbage and not think we have a crisis is unbelievable.

If I were a fanatic I'd be one of those people who deface artwork to call attention to climate crisis, which is a terrible and idiotic thing to do, or blowing up the offices of corporate polluters, rather than simply doing my part and encouraging others to do theirs.
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Don Pisto
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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 07:59 PM


Quote: Originally posted by lewmt  
Quote: Originally posted by Don Pisto  
Quote: Originally posted by lewmt  
"Mankind has the ability to alter the climate, and in a positive way.

The palm tree in the Bay of Concepcion and high tides in Del Mar are irrelative. The polar regions already are suffering. Some of the Pacific islands are suffering."

Let's say all of you climate change fanatics are correct that CO2 is altering the earth s climate. What evidence do you have that the changes aren't overall positive? NOAA has concluded that the planet is more productive in plant growth than ever before.....why is it necessarily a "catastrophic" change?

You say some of the Pacific islands are suffering....which ones? What suffering -


specifically- are they encountering? I've worked 6 months a year, for several years, on a small Pacific atoll where the maximum altitude is 30' and that was man made in WW2. Do you know the evolution of atolls? They rise out of the sea in volcanic eruptions & because of their mass slowly sink back into the seabed with or without CO2. So what specific provable facts do you have that climate change is causing suffering on Pacific Isles?

And please... don't say that hurricanes are more powerful or that specific weather events are your proof. If a "denialist" ever points to specifically cooler weather occurances you scream that specific weather occurances aren't proof of anything.


[Edited on 9-25-2023 by lewmt]


lets go back to your "first hand" experience climbing and snowboarding Jackson and Blackfoot glacier, your argument was "see, same as it ever was, even better!" are we to believe atoll lewmt or....NASA?
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/world-of-change/glacier.ph...


If you are questioning whether my experiences are real...since you don't know me you have no way of knowing whether they are or not. I can't prove them true but i can say honestly that they are. The fact that I have climbed and descended glaciers in GNP doesn't preclude my ability to work on a remote Pacific atoll. Both things are true & accurate.

I'm not sure why climate change fanatics never answer questions directly. They just subvert the questioner & divert the message. That NOAA has models which show shrinking glaciers is fine...they have also published research showing the net plant growth in the world expanding....I doubt there will be anything close to a thoughtful response to this either

[Edited on 9-25-2023 by lewmt]



hmmm...let me think, I gotta go with NOAA and NASA on this one but I don't doubt for a moment you're a hard charging glacier hiker/snowboarder just maybe prone to embellishing a bit...thats my thoughtful response.




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[*] posted on 9-24-2023 at 08:26 PM


DP,

You mean from the estimated 1.5 billion cows world wide? The US accounts for less than 40 million cows.

Since everyone passes gas 7.3 billion people probably pass more gas than 340 million Americans.

No one knows how much methane termites produce and NASA has only been monitoring methane since about 2006. Lots of organic and inorganic methane released from the oceans. Probably a lot from hog lagoons in India and China as well.

NASA only sees the gross polluters. It’s possible that India or China are the largest polluters or the termites or nature itself with inorganic methane releases.

Complicated issue!
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