BajaNomad

More Baja Maps added! 1702, 1788, 1912, 1926, 1927 & 1951

David K - 4-8-2023 at 09:59 PM

The amount of historic old maps of Baja California has just increased... See them in high detail at https://vivabaja.com/maps/ Just click on the map (at VivaBaja.com/maps) a second time to zoom in for detailed viewing!

Here see an overview, without the zoom in feature:

1702


1788


1912


1926


1927


1951


4x4abc - 4-9-2023 at 08:13 AM

some very interesting details on these maps
I'll be lost for a few days

David K - 4-9-2023 at 08:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
some very interesting details on these maps
I'll be lost for a few days


It's like an Easter Egg hunt... you never know what you'll find until you look closely!

Lance S. - 4-9-2023 at 08:49 AM

More great stuff. Not seeing the 1927 road plan one, curious where that comes from.

David K - 4-10-2023 at 05:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
More great stuff. Not seeing the 1927 road plan one, curious where that comes from.


Thank you for alerting me... I must have been sleepy!

It is now added with the other 1920s maps:

1921 Baja California Norte Districts (large)
1921 Baja California Norte Districts (medium)
1922 Baja California Map
1922 Baja California Geology Map
1923 & 1928 Baja California Geographical Maps
1926 Railroad Map (San Diego to Tijuana to Tecate to Mexicali to Yuma)
1927 Auto Club Maps (San Diego to the San Quintín area)
1927-1928 Road map, California to Mulegé (super zoom)

If the super-zoom version is too close, I have a medium zoom one as well. Posted above is the no zoom version.

bajaric - 4-10-2023 at 04:01 PM

Love looking at these old maps! The 1927 shows a road from Chapala to Punta Prieta. Prior to then the main north-south routes in this area were burro trails; either El Camino Real or the trail to the west described by Hale that passed by the "Leons" (Aqua Leon, Arroyo Loencito, Leon Grande, etc.)

Walking south from Leon Grande in 1921 Hale described coming upon a graded "road to nowhere" that terminated abruptly in the desert. Upon following it south they found it led to Punta Prieta. This was probably the early construction of the completed road shown on the 1927 map.

I believe that this road bridged one of the final gaps in the north-south route that were until then impassable to automobiles. Just 3 years later in 1930 AAA published their road map after driving the length of the peninsula.

4x4abc - 4-10-2023 at 04:14 PM

everything checks out on the 1913 Mexicali/Laguna Salada map
except the hot springs
could not locate it
maybe it went cold or dried up

hot spring.jpg - 261kB

David K - 4-10-2023 at 05:14 PM

Glad you guys are enjoying them!
Ric, did you see the photos at Agua Leon that Geoff recently posted in his trip report?

The 1930 AAA map and this 1927-28 one look a lot alike in many places... !?!

Harald, how do you spot a hot spring if no palms are growing, or ?? Being on the edge of the lake... like the ones in Puertecitos, Concepcion Bay, Agua Verde, and El Sargento, I wonder if the body of water needs to be there? When Laguna Salada is dry, no hot water to pump up!

4x4abc - 4-10-2023 at 06:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


Harald, how do you spot a hot spring if no palms are growing, or ?? Being on the edge of the lake... like the ones in Puertecitos, Concepcion Bay, Agua Verde, and El Sargento, I wonder if the body of water needs to be there? When Laguna Salada is dry, no hot water to pump up!


Good question!
How do I know?

My own travel experience and user post in various groups
sometimes it takes me a couple of years to finally put the pin down in Google Earth

old maps are the most difficult as the locations are not very accurate
only approximate

I expect the hot springs (if they still exist) to be a bit a way from the Laguna Salada shore
just like Agua de las Mujeres
beautiful spot with palm trees on a hill side

the marker right of Las Mujeres is the Fumarole
the markers to the left are springs I have not checked on foot yet.

las mujeres.jpg - 281kB

[Edited on 4-11-2023 by 4x4abc]

bajaric - 4-10-2023 at 07:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Glad you guys are enjoying them!
Ric, did you see the photos at Agua Leon that Geoff recently posted in his trip report?


I did see it on Geoff's trip report, also that he sighted a mountain lion in the general area. There must have been mountain lions there in the past because so many places around there are named "Leon". Apparently, a few have managed to survive into the present day.

The road north from Punta Prieta to Chapala in 1927 was probably what we would call Old Hwy 1. It is a little west of paved Hwy 1. This is a picture of a section of the old dirt road a little northwest of the BOLA junction. Looking west, Mesas el Leoncito in background.

Old Hwy 1.jpg - 120kB

Lance S. - 4-10-2023 at 07:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The 1930 AAA map and this 1927-28 one look a lot alike in many places... !?!


From Homer Aschmann,
"The Automobile Club of Southern California and Governor Rodriguez, cooperating almost like sovereign powers, undertook to drive wheeled vehicles south from San Quintin to connect with the road system of the southern Territory. In late 1926 an Auto Club group make it to Rosario, Note 6 and in 1927 a combined expedition of the Mexican military, including the Governor, and the Auto Club drove to San Ignacio, then over the Boleo Company's roads to Santa Rosalia and Mulegé."


[Edited on 4-11-2023 by Lance S.]

David K - 4-11-2023 at 06:15 AM

Perfect...
I have Homer's report on VivaBaja.com/maps, preserved by Fred Metcalf: https://vivabaja.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/History-of-t... along with his map showing the route of the main road to the tip, over the years: https://vivabaja.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Aschmann-197...

The old (pre-1973) route to La Paz is just west of Mex. #1, north of Punta Prieta. You can see it on satellite images. It wanders to the west from the pavement south of El Crucero.

The road described by Hale in the 1920s is one I have wanted to see but a not so straightly engineered road is all that there is from Leon Grande south to Punta Prieta. He may have written the book closer to the 1968 publishing date and the details could have been lost to memory after 40 years?

Lance S. - 4-11-2023 at 12:56 PM

To push back the history of highway one a little further, the route they drove in 1927 effectively followed the San Ignacio-La Sierrita route described in Itinererios y Derroteros. The route Nelson refered to as the western route.
That route in turn was based on Consags 1751 expedition route and part of Lincks 1766 expedition route.
Those routes in turn followed well traveled Cochimi routes.

[Edited on 4-11-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-11-2023 at 01:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
To push back the history of highway one a little further, the route they drove in 1927 effectively followed the San Ignacio-La Sierrita route described in Itinererios y Derroteros. The route Nelson refered to as the western route.
That route in turn was based on Consags 1751 expedition route and part of Lincks 1766 expedition route.
Those routes in turn followed well traveled Cochimi routes.

[Edited on 4-11-2023 by Lance S.]


can you translate that to maps?

bajaric - 4-11-2023 at 05:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Perfect...
I have Homer's report on VivaBaja.com/maps, preserved by Fred Metcalf: https://vivabaja.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/History-of-t... along with his map showing the route of the main road to the tip, over the years: https://vivabaja.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Aschmann-197...

The old (pre-1973) route to La Paz is just west of Mex. #1, north of Punta Prieta. You can see it on satellite images. It wanders to the west from the pavement south of El Crucero.

The road described by Hale in the 1920s is one I have wanted to see but a not so straightly engineered road is all that there is from Leon Grande south to Punta Prieta. He may have written the book closer to the 1968 publishing date and the details could have been lost to memory after 40 years?


I think "the old (pre-1973) route to La Paz" or what i call "Old Hwy 1" was "the road to nowhere" described by Hale. If it had been the trail to Leon Grande it would not have terminated abruptly in the desert. I would liken it to highway 5, before it was finished and it just stopped in the desert north of Gonzaga.

Leon Grande, the spring and mining camp, was well-known enough to have been shown on maps. Beal's 1923 Geology map on vivabaja.com, probably the most accurate, shows Leon Grande as about ten miles north of 29 degrees latitude and 27 miles due west of the coast at Bahia Blanca. This would put Leon Grande about here: 29.043 -114.199, which makes sense, although that is only about 5 miles north of 29 latitude it is the right location in relation to Aqua Leon. Or Leon Grande is somewhere north of there.

You can see an old trail that goes past that point and south until it hits Hwy 1. That was the probably the spot where Hale stumbled upon the end of the road to nowhere, before the road was completed all the way to Chapala several years later and bypassed the trail that went past Leon Grande and Agua Leon.




[Edited on 4-12-2023 by bajaric]

4x4abc - 4-11-2023 at 08:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
.



To save me from looking it up, where is La Serrita?


upper right corner of H11D26 and lower right corner of H11D16

[Edited on 4-12-2023 by 4x4abc]

Lance S. - 4-11-2023 at 09:54 PM

Sorry, no maps. Would be cool to see all the routes overlain in different colors.

I believe this is Aguaje La Sierrita 29°51'59"N 115°03'36"W.
It is on the 1922 map. The goldbaum map takes the actual little mountain range called La Sierrita and places it where the aguaje should be. The range is just south of the aguaje.

[Edited on 4-12-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 4-11-2023 at 10:01 PM

Here's that article originally from 1913 that mentions the aguaje
https://www.academia.edu/27626752/G_Engerrand_s_New_Petrogly...

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 12:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Sorry, no maps. Would be cool to see all the routes overlain in different colors.

I believe this is Aguaje La Sierrita 29°51'59"N 115°03'36"W.
It is on the 1922 map. The goldbaum map takes the actual little mountain range called La Sierrita and places it where the aguaje should be. The range is just south of the aguaje.

[Edited on 4-12-2023 by Lance S.]


which 1922 map? Can't find it

David K - 4-12-2023 at 04:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Sorry, no maps. Would be cool to see all the routes overlain in different colors.

I believe this is Aguaje La Sierrita 29°51'59"N 115°03'36"W.
It is on the 1922 map. The goldbaum map takes the actual little mountain range called La Sierrita and places it where the aguaje should be. The range is just south of the aguaje.

[Edited on 4-12-2023 by Lance S.]


which 1922 map? Can't find it


This one:
1922 Baja California Map

David K - 4-12-2023 at 04:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
.



To save me from looking it up, where is La Sierrita?


upper right corner of H11D26 and lower right corner of H11D16

[Edited on 4-12-2023 by 4x4abc]


Gee thanks, Harald :rolleyes:

The 1922 Map at VivaBaja/maps has it as plain as day, south of the main road to Cataviña and just east of the road to Puerto Santa Catarina. On the 1922 map, it is listed south of 'Onyx' (El Mármol).

David K - 4-12-2023 at 04:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Perfect...
I have Homer's report on VivaBaja.com/maps, preserved by Fred Metcalf: https://vivabaja.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/History-of-t... along with his map showing the route of the main road to the tip, over the years: https://vivabaja.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Aschmann-197...

The old (pre-1973) route to La Paz is just west of Mex. #1, north of Punta Prieta. You can see it on satellite images. It wanders to the west from the pavement south of El Crucero.

The road described by Hale in the 1920s is one I have wanted to see but a not so straightly engineered road is all that there is from Leon Grande south to Punta Prieta. He may have written the book closer to the 1968 publishing date and the details could have been lost to memory after 40 years?


I think "the old (pre-1973) route to La Paz" or what i call "Old Hwy 1" was "the road to nowhere" described by Hale. If it had been the trail to Leon Grande it would not have terminated abruptly in the desert. I would liken it to highway 5, before it was finished and it just stopped in the desert north of Gonzaga.

Leon Grande, the spring and mining camp, was well-known enough to have been shown on maps. Beal's 1923 Geology map on vivabaja.com, probably the most accurate, shows Leon Grande as about ten miles north of 29 degrees latitude and 27 miles due west of the coast at Bahia Blanca. This would put Leon Grande about here: 29.043 -114.199, which makes sense, although that is only about 5 miles north of 29 latitude it is the right location in relation to Aqua Leon. Or Leon Grande is somewhere north of there.

You can see an old trail that goes past that point and south until it hits Hwy 1. That was the probably the spot where Hale stumbled upon the end of the road to nowhere, before the road was completed all the way to Chapala several years later and bypassed the trail that went past Leon Grande and Agua Leon.




[Edited on 4-12-2023 by bajaric]


Good morning Ric, here on Nomad, finding Leon Grande was a big project a while back... We had a 'consensus' :lol: that we found it, at the very end of the road that goes north-northwest from Punta Prieta, the same distance that Hale mentioned. Look here (basically more west from your point, west of Parador Punta Prieta): 29.0284, -114.2547 Of course just because there is a consensus, doesn't make it a fact! ;)

The very detailed 1971 Geology map shows it well, too. 1971 Geology Map, south section

I do hope one of us actually drives the 8-9 road miles north from Punta Prieta and takes photos! I think the old Baja Amigo prospector 'Gila Oro' (Max) spent some time there... 20 years+ ago?

bajaric - 4-12-2023 at 05:58 AM

Hello DK, I do remember that discussion. Your GPS location above is a mine called La Venada, (the deer) at the end of a dead-end road up in the mountains. It is not on a north-south trail as the terrain to the north is impassable.

Take a closer look at the 1971 geological map. It shows a mine symbol for Leon Grande 3.3 miles north of La Venada, on a little hill about 1.2 miles southwest of Mesas el Leoncito. If there is a spring there that is probably Leon Grande, the historical water hole on the old western trail.

I initially thought that was just a mine called Leon Grande but it just dawned on me that whoever drew that map may have put a mine symbol where there was actually a mining camp or mill, a common practice among cartographers.

[Edited on 4-12-2023 by bajaric]

David K - 4-12-2023 at 08:19 AM

I am not seeing any La Venada on the 1971 map. What are you looking at?

If the 1971 map is wrong, and what they have as Leon Grande is La Venada, then are you saying Leon Grande is 3.3 miles beyond? I just did an arc sweep 3.3 miles out... and saw nothing on Google Earth.

I am very interested in seeing what you are describing!

The GPS waypoint I gave for Leon Grande is 9 miles (direct, as the crow flies) from Punta Prieta, old town, on a heading of 321.45° (north west north). It also is 6.3 miles from the old Parador Punta Prieta, where gas is now sold out of cans, on a heading of 259.4° (westward).

Here is a close up of the 1971 map (published in 1973) with Punta Prieta at the bottom and Leon Grande near the top. The map is showing about a 10 x 12 mile-wide area.



[Edited on 4-12-2023 by David K]

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 08:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  



The 1922 Map at VivaBaja/maps has it as plain as day, south of the main road to Cataviña and just east of the road to Puerto Santa Catarina. On the 1922 map, it is listed south of 'Onyx' (El Mármol).


got it
matches today's sat images
but it does not match the image in the Engerrand paper (Mountains in Engerrand image are much higher than at the La Sierrita map location)

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 09:47 AM

La Venada:
https://www.gob.mx/profepa/prensa/clausura-profepa-proyecto-...

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 10:05 AM

Mesas el Leoncito (INEGI): 29° 5.915'N, 114° 14.041'W and 29° 10.007'N, 114° 13.271'W



[Edited on 4-12-2023 by 4x4abc]

bajaric - 4-12-2023 at 10:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I am not seeing any La Venada on the 1971 map. What are you looking at?

If the 1971 map is wrong, and what they have as Leon Grande is La Venada, then are you saying Leon Grande is 3.3 miles beyond? I just did an arc sweep 3.3 miles out... and saw nothing on Google Earth.

I am very interested in seeing what you are describing!

The GPS waypoint I gave for Leon Grande is 9 miles (direct, as the crow flies) from Punta Prieta, old town, on a heading of 321.45° (north west north). It also is 6.3 miles from the old Parador Punta Prieta, where gas is now sold out of cans, on a heading of 259.4° (westward).

Here is a close up of the 1971 map (published in 1973) with Punta Prieta at the bottom and Leon Grande near the top. The map is showing about a 10 x 12 mile-wide area.



[Edited on 4-12-2023 by David K]



The mine symbol labeled Leon Grande on the 1971 geological map is in the upper left hand corner. Zoomed in a bit shows 3 possible sites for Leon Grande; 1971 map, Haralds proposed location, and La Venada. It is unclear if the site shown on the 1971 map is Leon Grande, the spring, or a mine with the same name.


Capture Leon Grande tiny.PNG - 190kB





Captures 3 Leon Grandes.jpg - 32kB

[Edited on 4-13-2023 by bajaric]

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 10:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  


The 1971 map shows Leon Grande about 1 mile south of Mesa el Leoncito, as can be seen when comparing it to Google Earth. I could give you the GPS coordinates, but it is a secret. You have to work for it lol.


[Edited on 4-12-2023 by bajaric]


secret?

I am out

bajaric - 4-12-2023 at 11:01 AM

Interesting article that they shut down La Venada. Thats the place DK thought was Leon Grande.

Lance S. - 4-12-2023 at 11:52 AM

The La Venada mining exploration project was at the former Leon Grande mine?

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 11:52 AM

here is "secret" Mina Leon Grande: 29° 3.637'N, 114° 17.185'W

and the secret road leading there:

Attachment: 4x4 trail mining faint Leon Grande.kmz (6kB)
This file has been downloaded 59 times

Attachment: 4x4 rural mining faint.kmz (2kB)
This file has been downloaded 64 times

Attachment: 4x4 rural mining.kmz (1kB)
This file has been downloaded 63 times

Attachment: 4x4 rural mining1.kmz (2kB)
This file has been downloaded 77 times

Attachment: 4x4 rural mining2.kmz (1kB)
This file has been downloaded 61 times

Attachment: 4x4 rural mining4.kmz (6kB)
This file has been downloaded 73 times

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 12:13 PM

here is a Google Earth overlay with the geo map

download the Leon Grande Overlay kmz
and download the map image below

open kmz in GE
"ctrl - I" ("cmd - I" on Mac) the overlay kmz
then link to the downloaded jpg

Attachment: Leon Grande Overlay.kmz (263kB)
This file has been downloaded 59 times

Screen Shot 2023-04-12 at 11.48.00 AM copy.jpg - 319kB





overlay Leon Grande 800.jpg - 263kB

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 12:17 PM

reference points:
Agua Leon: 29° 9.934'N, 114° 13.762'W
La Vachata: 28° 50.219'N, 114° 7.303'W

Lance S. - 4-12-2023 at 12:51 PM

I think the Punta Prieta on the geology map Harald posted is cerro Punta Prieta rather than the town. It is in the correct location for the cerro, inland from Playa maria.

[Edited on 4-12-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 02:16 PM

Google just added another major image blocking section
somebody has an interest that the public will not see details in that area

block.jpg - 282kB

Lance S. - 4-12-2023 at 02:19 PM

That's crazy, is it blocked for all dates?

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 02:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
That's crazy, is it blocked for all dates?


the entire date range

I am lucky - I recorded some tracks before the blockage

4x4abc - 4-12-2023 at 02:33 PM

the current blocks I came across the last few months

all block.jpg - 260kB

David K - 4-13-2023 at 07:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
reference points:
Agua Leon: 29° 9.934'N, 114° 13.762'W
La Vachata: 28° 50.219'N, 114° 7.303'W


Harald, Geoffff photographed the spring of Agua Leon in his newest trip report. It is a few hundred feet north of your point, next to where the road ends in these trees: 29.1701, -114.2294

Spelled on all modern maps as La Bachata, along the highway at Km. 24.5 is an abandoned home with a triangle window: 28.8365, -114.1252 (this is a few hundred feet west of your point, across the highway).


David K - 4-13-2023 at 07:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
here is a Google Earth overlay with the geo map

download the Leon Grande Overlay kmz
and download the map image below

open kmz in GE
"ctrl - I" ("cmd - I" on Mac) the overlay kmz
then link to the downloaded jpg



The overlay is not matched in scale to the GE map...

David K - 4-13-2023 at 08:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
here is "secret" Mina Leon Grande: 29° 3.637'N, 114° 17.185'W

and the secret road leading there:



That was fun... several trails or roads, or parts of roads, between Parador Punta Prieta and the place we had earlier agreed was Leon Grande (at least as shown on maps): Here: 29.0284, -114.2547

Perhaps these hills are rich with gold and there are naturally many prospects or placer deposits that were checked out. That one straight piece of road, with with a detour around the excavated ramp (or natural but straight gully), was interesting. Here: 29.0648, -114.1814

Thanks Harald!

David K - 4-13-2023 at 08:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
La Venada:
https://www.gob.mx/profepa/prensa/clausura-profepa-proyecto-...


Who knows for sure where this La Venada is, or they just used an old name from some 1920s map?

4x4abc - 4-13-2023 at 09:01 AM

Mina La Venada official location according to register: 29° 1.693'N, 114° 15.288'W

La Venada is what we thought for some time to be Leon Grande
well, it is on the trail to Leon Grande - but it was not Leon Grande

[Edited on 4-13-2023 by 4x4abc]

4x4abc - 4-13-2023 at 09:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
here is a Google Earth overlay with the geo map

download the Leon Grande Overlay kmz
and download the map image below

open kmz in GE
"ctrl - I" ("cmd - I" on Mac) the overlay kmz
then link to the downloaded jpg



The overlay is not matched in scale to the GE map...



you use the controls of the overlay box to scale the map using the reference points (grab and drag the corners until the image fits)
you'll figure it out
pretty easy

4x4abc - 4-13-2023 at 09:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


Spelled on all modern maps as La Bachata, along the highway at Km. 24.5 is an abandoned home with a triangle window: 28.8365, -114.1252 (this is a few hundred feet west of your point, across the highway).



I used La Vachata because that is the name on the map
and on this old map La Vachata sits a bit east in the Arroyo Palo Chino and not on the highway

David K - 4-13-2023 at 10:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Mina La Venada official location according to register: 29° 1.693'N, 114° 15.288'W

La Venada is what we thought for some time to be Leon Grande
well, it is on the trail to Leon Grande - but it was not Leon Grande

[Edited on 4-13-2023 by 4x4abc]


Which is the Leon Grande location of all maps (seems to me) from the 1920s to 1971... With the '71 Geology map being highly detailed and accurate. The wagon/auto road ending north from Punta Prieta there, is also a solid clue.

1919 map of wagon roads and trails:

4x4abc - 4-13-2023 at 10:28 AM

v and b are often exchanged in Baja

https://www.google.com/search?q=letter+v+and+b+in+mexico&...

David K - 4-13-2023 at 05:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Mina La Venada official location according to register: 29° 1.693'N, 114° 15.288'W

La Venada is what we thought for some time to be Leon Grande
well, it is on the trail to Leon Grande - but it was not Leon Grande

[Edited on 4-13-2023 by 4x4abc]


The road ends there and the distance to Punta Prieta matches, so if that isn't Leon Grande, please show it to us and the wagon road that ends at Leon Grande, from 100 years ago. I am rereading the Hale book pages, which I have posted here on Nomad in the past.
Let me know if anyone would like to see them again, about this area of Agua Leon, Leon Grande, and Punta Prieta.

4x4abc - 4-14-2023 at 09:21 AM

the road between Mina La Venada and Mina Leon Grande is partially well defined - see attached track
the last section between Aguaja Leon Grande (2 springs) and Mina Leon Grande is no longer detectable
understandable since it follows an Arroyo and there is no local ranch activity
seems like the Mina La Venada people have maintained the road to the spring - but not beyond that

interesting is the crop planting activity at the lower spring 29° 2.566'N, 114° 16.322'W
early 2000 images are best in detail

Leon Grande.jpg - 262kB

Attachment: 4x4 rural mining trail Manantial Leon Grande.kmz (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 61 times

4x4abc - 4-14-2023 at 09:23 AM

I see a number of indicators for a trail network between the 2 defined roads

indicators.jpg - 303kB

David K - 4-14-2023 at 10:59 AM

Good morning, Harald.

I am trying very hard to see any sign of mine activity at your location for Leon Grande, 3 miles beyond 'my' location. Can you show us what you see that makes you think it was a busy mine on a close up sat image?

Thank you!

4x4abc - 4-14-2023 at 11:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Good morning, Harald.

I am trying very hard to see any sign of mine activity at your location for Leon Grande, 3 miles beyond 'my' location. Can you show us what you see that makes you think it was a busy mine on a close up sat image?

Thank you!


not sure - but that is where the road ends
no good sat images of that area

bajaric - 4-15-2023 at 05:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Mina La Venada official location according to register: 29° 1.693'N, 114° 15.288'W

La Venada is what we thought for some time to be Leon Grande
well, it is on the trail to Leon Grande - but it was not Leon Grande

[Edited on 4-13-2023 by 4x4abc]


"Which is the Leon Grande location of all maps (seems to me) from the 1920s to 1971... With the '71 Geology map being highly detailed and accurate."
end quote

DK, as I have politely pointed out several times "your" Leon Grande ((La Venada) is 3 miles south of the location for Leon Grande that is shown on the 1971 Geological map. The 1921 map shows Leon Grande 8 miles due south of Agua Leon, which is also north of La Venada. La Venada is not the Leon Grande location of all maps. It is the location on no maps.

Leon Grande was a water hole on the old north south trail. Water was so scarce in this area that finding water was literally a matter of life and death for travelers on foot. That is why it is shown on all the maps from the 1920's when the trail was in use. It is interesting that no one on here, myself included, know exactly where the water hole or spring was located. Harald has put forth some reasonable possibilities, though I think the trail was well east of La Venada, running along the eastern flanks of the Sierra Columbia between Mesa el Leoncito and Punta Prieta. There are so many old mining trails in there it is hard to say which one is the north-south trail.

La Venada appears to be a modern mine. That is why the road to it is so visible on Google Earth. The north-south trail was a burro trail that was only in use for a short time before it was abandoned, so it is probably pretty faint. Even in 1921 it was faint, as Hale and his companion noted when they lost the trail and almost died before the heard the sound of singing, and found a road crew camped at Leon Grande, a pool of water below a source in a cliff.


David K - 4-15-2023 at 08:58 AM

Quote:
Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Mina La Venada official location according to register: 29° 1.693'N, 114° 15.288'W

La Venada is what we thought for some time to be Leon Grande
well, it is on the trail to Leon Grande - but it was not Leon Grande

[Edited on 4-13-2023 by 4x4abc]


"Which is the Leon Grande location of all maps (seems to me) from the 1920s to 1971... With the '71 Geology map being highly detailed and accurate."


DK, as I have politely pointed out several times "your" Leon Grande ((La Venada) is 3 miles south of the location for Leon Grande that is shown on the 1971 Geological map. The 1921 map shows Leon Grande 8 miles due south of Agua Leon, which is also north of La Venada. La Venada is not the Leon Grande location of all maps. It is the location on no maps.

Leon Grande was a water hole on the old north south trail. Water was so scarce in this area that finding water was literally a matter of life and death for travelers on foot. That is why it is shown on all the maps from the 1920's when the trail was in use. It is interesting that no one on here, myself included, know exactly where the water hole or spring was located. Harald has put forth some reasonable possibilities, though I think the trail was well east of La Venada, running along the eastern flanks of the Sierra Columbia between Mesa el Leoncito and Punta Prieta. There are so many old mining trails in there it is hard to say which one is the north-south trail.

La Venada appears to be a modern mine. That is why the road to it is so visible on Google Earth. The north-south trail was a burro trail that was only in use for a short time before it was abandoned, so it is probably pretty faint. Even in 1921 it was faint, as Hale and his companion noted when they lost the trail and almost died before the heard the sound of singing, and found a road crew camped at Leon Grande, a pool of water below a source in a cliff.


Well, I think we all need to go explore the area. Also, a careful reading of Hale's words is in order. Do we have any other book references to Leon Grande? Thanks to 'geoffff' we have photos and gps for Agua Leon. 'My' Leon Grande came from the 1971 map, which shows it as a mine. I measured the spot from nearby known locations (Yubay, Punta Prieta, old L.A. Bay jcn. with old main road, etc.). I will do it again, and see where the 1971 map spot goes on Google Earth, this time! Ha! First, I will dig up the original location discovery post... stand by! LOL

mtgoat666 - 4-15-2023 at 10:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
here is "secret" Mina Leon Grande: 29° 3.637'N, 114° 17.185'W



Wrong. Here is the claim site mapped as Leon grande claim on 1971 map. On GE you can see disturbed ground of previous workings, and it is exactly where 1971 map has it mapped.
29°04'51"N 114°14'49"W

There may have been a local spring or rancho named Leon grande; to find such, you should stop at local ranchos and inquire.

And this is Mina Columbia shown on 1971 geo map. 28°56'01"N 114°14'40"W

Leon grande was a prospect. Columbia was a bit more than a prospect, but may have never reached appreciable production


[Edited on 4-15-2023 by mtgoat666]

4x4abc - 4-15-2023 at 11:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


Well, I think we all need to go explore the area. Also, a careful reading of Hale's words is in order. Do we have any other book references to Leon Grande? Thanks to 'geoffff' we have photos and gps for Agua Leon. 'My' Leon Grande came from the 1971 map, which shows it as a mine. I measured the spot from nearby known locations (Yubay, Punta Prieta, old L.A. Bay jcn. with old main road, etc.). I will do it again, and see where the 1971 map spot goes on Google Earth, this time! Ha! First, I will dig up the original location discovery post... stand by! LOL


I did an overlay with the 1971 map
it puts Leon Grande at 29° 3.773'N, 114° 15.830'W
1.4 miles away from the location we think is Leon Grande
2.6 miles away from La Venada

Screen Shot 2023-04-15 at 11.55.17 AM copy.jpg - 116kB

[

[Edited on 4-15-2023 by 4x4abc]

David K - 4-15-2023 at 12:34 PM

It is something to get the goat interested in cartography and history!

"Where o'where is Leon Grande, where o'where could it be..."

Previous threads with Leon Grande chat & maps:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=96760
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=96243
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=95950
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=78559
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=78635
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=35262

On Jan. 23, 2012 is the first mention of this area from a Nomad search (last link above). I commented about Agua Leon (confusing it with Leon Grande):
"Agua Leon would be an interesting ghost town to find... north of Punta Prieta, and west into the hills. It is written about in the book 'Long Walk to Mulege'."