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Doug/Vamonos
Nomad
Posts: 417
Registered: 6-19-2006
Location: Bahia de los Angeles
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My first visit to Loreto was in 1994. It was as quiet as could be. We were probably the only guests in La Pinta in July, they opened the restaurant
when we wanted to eat. We were the only boat on the water fishing. I remember in the late nineties hearing all the promos on Let's Talk Hookup with
Pam Bolles, promoting the fishing in Loreto. I kept wishing she would just be quiet and keep it to herself. But, she chose to make a living that way,
as do other people in Baja. That's the one thing I can't stand in Baja; Americans making a living trying to get more Americans/Canadians/whoever to
move there or otherwise invest in Baja and change what it has been for centuries. Guess what? The people came, and they keep coming because of all the
promotional BS that they hear. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but that's the way I see it. I've decided Baja's glory is in the past. The fishing doesn't
even approach what it was just ten years ago. Sure, there is a good bite at times, but there are so many commercials out there fishing them that they
won't last long. Can't, because it's not being managed. And in the larger towns like Loreto, La Paz, the East Cape and Cabo, there are so many private
boats in the water killing everything they see. And Americans are broadcasting the daily catch stats on the radio shows to get more of them coming, so
they can make more money on their charters and hotels. Greed, greed and more greed. Damn, sorry to be such a bummer.
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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People have been promoting fishing in the Sea of Cortez since the 1950s...Ray Cannon, Bobby Van Wormer, Ed Tabor, Rod Rodrigez, to name a few. My
parents were fly down fishermen in the 50s. I cannot equate someone following that tradition, like Pam Bolles, with corporate developers out to remake
Baja in a new image for the sake of pure greed. I cannot equate the efforts of an individual trying to support a family with a corporate juggernaut.
I find building huge resorts selfish. But there is also a selfishness in wishing Loreto and its people remain poor so that our short vacations are
more picturesque, and the fishing better. There is a middle ground here, where Americans can contribute and share some of the wealth we are so
fortunate to have access too. Moderation is the key.
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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excuse me but pam bolles is married to a mexican and he was living and making a living in loreto long befor 1994 and loreto was advertising for
fisherman for more then 50 years every time a fisherman comes home to brag about how good the fishing was more people come try it and move there
as a mater of fact you just now promoted loreto as still a good fishing place telling everyone on this board
there may be people that are promoting come live in loreto but it sure isnt pam bolles its a fishing village and promoting fishing is what it is
all about
jerry and judi
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Doug/Vamonos
Nomad
Posts: 417
Registered: 6-19-2006
Location: Bahia de los Angeles
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Developments are being built because there is a demand for these homes. Same as southern california, or any other city that is in a growth mode
because it is a desirable destination. Anyone who runs a business in the area and promotes it as a destination for their own profit motive, has a role
in the people coming there, and possibly finding a place they want to call their own and stay. My point was not to place blame on one person. Baja is
exploding because travel there is relatively safe, affordable and fast. That wasn't the case ten or twenty years ago. The marketing created the
interest, the airlines reacted to the demand and made it cheap and easy to travel there, and developers are now building for those who want a piece of
it.
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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sorry doug but everyone promotes something for there own motives even if it just them selves for a job or to a boss for a raise i too have been going
to baja since 1991 and i know the mexican standered of living in loreto has gone way up
i dont think keeping everything as it once was for your own benafit is grounds to blame somone who belongs there for changing things for their
benafit
have a good one jerry
jerry and judi
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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Mood: muted
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The biggest problem appears to me to be the fact that these types of developments preclude locals from being owners because of the high cost. Too bad
something couldn't be figured out that includes the locals as owners. I imagine the developers could have built houses/condos that cost between $50K -
$150K. They do it here in Tijuana where land costs are pretty high. The LB folks just decided that they weren't concerned about providing housing for
Baja locals and to maximize their profits. Which I bet are quite tidy when you consider the cost per square foot to build a concrete structure on
cheap land using real cheap labor and the price per square foot that they're getting.
Also, this is from their website:
"Imagine a place where every day the air is cleaner the water is purer the people are healthier life is more abundant...."
Now let me get this straight, the place is going to be cleaner and healthier after 10s of thousands of people with their bowel movements, cars,
plastic bottles, garbage, and a myriad of chemical cleaners, insecticides, and who knows what else arrive?
What a sales pitch!! These folks have balls!! That's absolutely 100% impossible. I can just see them laughing in their board room when the marketing
folks came up with that.
Anyway, good luck to those who have bought. As bajabeachbabe pointed out, most are middle aged or older so they're in good shape. They will all be
dead in the 20 to 30 years it will take for Loreto to degrade into another Cabo Wabo.
grumble, grumble, grumble
I can't help it. It happened to Cabo, its happening now on the East Cape and in Todos Santos, and it looks like Loreto is next.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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Mood: muted
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Forgot to add this. Here's what the folks in the ivory towers think. Sorry if this has been posted before. I just got into reading this thread.
http://futurosalternativosloreto.org/report/report_conclusio...
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64834
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Online
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Scary to think in just 18 years it could look like that... (the satellite map for 2025)... like San Jose del Cabo to Cabo San Lucas today... or worse!
If they want to do anything close to that, dams will need to be built in the canyons between Loreto and Comondu to make reservoirs. Hate to see those
exotic canyons go underwater.
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bajabeachbabe
Nomad
Posts: 150
Registered: 9-11-2006
Location: Loreto,
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving life
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jerry
i have a few questions
are most of the people working at loreto bay from loreto?? or come from the main land??
recently wasnt a large parcel of land south of loreto sold by a large number of familys to the tune of $55,000,000 us dollars
and another large parcel north of loreto in the $27,000,000us bucks by another large number of familys?
are we to tell these people not to sell there land?? what they should spend their money on?
in life as i know it you cant sell it and still have it' (except posibliy the penthouse)
these appear to be long time familys elders that O.K.ed these sales
i dont think the locals had much choise about loreto bay but they do have choses as to there future as loretoians and they are choosing to sell what
they spend their money on is their busness
i allso think that loreto bay is small potatoes compared to the big picture for loreto
loreto was slated as a tourest trap many years ago look at escandeto and nopolo |
Jerry makes a very good point. Right now Loreto Bay is the only visible development, so it is getting most of the wrath. I'm not a fan of LB, but at
least they are building homes for owners and not hotels or timeshare resorts. This type of visitor will be interested in preserving the beauty of the
area, for that is the reason that they bought into the development. For them Loreto is either their home or second home.
The other developments that will soon be popping up will include huge hotels, timeshare resorts and interval ownership resorts. These developments at
Puerto Escondido and Ensenada Blanca are being developed by FONATUR and Villa Group, both Mexican entities. They aren't even trying to do anything
sustainable from what I have read in their proposals. The people that visit these developments will be spending only a week or two on vacation and
will certainly drive the tourist industry in the town.
In fact, during the Easter holidays, I believe Villa Group was intending to charge each camper on "their" beach 100 pesos for the right to camp there,
in order to pay for providing toilets, garbage pickup etc. I don't know if their plan came together, but it appeared to be a ploy to turn the holiday
period into a money making venture, by providing concession stands, etc.
As for Jerry's comment about the Loretanos selling their property, it is their right to do what they can with the property they own. Most of the
beachfront property in Loreto is owned by the ejidos, and it is the ejido owners who are profiting from the sales. Nobody is forcing them to sell.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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Hi bajabeachbabe,
Please read this thread from about a month ago. The original article posted is in Spanish but I translated it later down the thread. Here's the
thread's link:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=22961
its in the Baja News forum
You say LB is getting the flack because they're the first developing. I disagree. I believe its because of their deceptive method of selling
something that they can't promise. Greenwashing is definately the word for it. I have studied the sciences, BS in Biology, BS and MS in Chemistry so
I waded through advanced hydrology, physics, geology courses and I am telling you that they cannot deliver what they promise. Anything to sell a
unit. My folks took their tour and I couldn't believe what the sales staff would say to her questions about Loreto's water, power grid, sewer, etc.
There are many issues that are alarming but I believe the issue of water is the most severe and belongs on the front burner emergency-like.
Here's the little hotel that LB is proposing:
"Loreto Bay Company, of Canadian capital, was the first to take the Fonatur’s word. They’re projecting 600 hotel rooms, 6,374 residences, 4,571
villas, golf course, marina, spa, sport fishing center, restaurants and commercial, recreation and cultural centers."
that's a pretty big project. And I disagree with the type of homeowner there. Very part time residents are the reality so far and they mostly will
be placing their finished home into the rental pool, which means basically they become hotel rooms.
In the article the proven fact is that for every constructed room, 20 newcomers populate the area. Here's some more facts:
"In general, they project 80,000 hotel rooms and a growth of 1,500,00 persons in a region where the subterranean aquifers can only support 42,200
before saline intrusion occurs, pointed out Morales Polo [of GEA]."
Here's the original online version of the article in spanish from the daily periodical La Jornada:
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2007/02/19/index.php?section=esta...
So if the actual number of constructed hotel rooms, 80,000 becomes a reality our area's population will increase to 1.6 MILLION people.
There's just not enough water to sustain that population and that's a fact. Also will the shoreline properties be able to desalinate and dispose of
the salmuera (waste) into the sea of cortez? My diciplines tell me that the SOC will become the dead sea if this is allowed. Salt brine is much more
dense than seawater. The salmuera will settle to the bottom and the unsatisfactory underwater currents won't be enough to dispurse of this liquid
properly. So for the same reason that trawling for shrimp is bad (they drag the bottom with nets literally scraping and tearing up the sea floor) so
will be this selfish practice. There are other issues that are facts like those posted on the Loreto Water Meeting thread:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=23296
according to the most disturbing news of that meeting, we will be faced with a heavy metal toxic intrusion of the municipal aquifer. And what kind of
enviornmentally friendly entity tears up shoreline to create canals that they label "estuaries that create life", but in reality are more waterfront
properties to sell at premium prices?
I won't go into other things, this really ought to be enough for any person who is truly concerned about the future welfare of the city and its
people. And these are facts, just the facts.
To Dave Vamanos~
I am guilty of promoting Loreto as an excellent fishing destination for ten years. But I do have to clarify for the record, I have never advertized
nor appeared or spoken, even called in to Lets Talk Hook Up of any other radio show, with the exception of three call-in appearances to Ten Donavan's
Baja Talk Radio show. Let's Talk was never interested in hearing a woman in this very challenging, physically and emotionally demanding line of work.
I came here because I fell in love with my husband and the way of life. Also fishing in Loreto was at one time the main industry that got Loreto
recognized as a tourism destination. since I started here Loreto only had one industry and that was tourism. We survived hurricanes, economic
hardship especially after 9-11 and it has bonded us together. And that is only ten years. At one time Loreto was a very isolated village with no
communications. If I weren't here I could not help to improve the quality of the experience that sportfishing is off Loreto, nor could I have
contributed to the awareness that these captains deserve a fair and just compensation for what they do. Many now understand to consider running
expenses and factor that into their pricing. Those who I employ are free of being under the yolk of other outfitters who don't treat them with
respect and set prices among each other. I used to listed to Let's Talk Hook Up, can't remember those guys names, and I heard reports and paid
announcements on Loreto fishing on behalf of Cass Tours, Lynn rose Tours, Bluewater Tours, Baja Motion Tours, Baja Adventures, etc. There are others
outside that circle like fishabout and fishing international. They do way more promos in one day than I have ever done in ten years. simple reason
in my case is that we're a relatively small operation and I just don't have the personnell to handle more than our load limits, and financial- we're
not that well funded. The most popular promos we've done have been the fish reports on our website and our news feeds to WON, also amigos de baja
among others. Nothing out of the ordinary that any of the other operatons haven't already been doing. The honest reporting was a new phase for
Loreto and over these years has come to be appreciated. As large corporations take over here and the resorts take over and can their products to
something less personal, I am hoping that the traditions of the panguero can remain intact. I will do what I can to preserve that. It would kill me
to see some of the greatest captains pass their skills onto their sons, a beautiful tradition, only to become waiters shipped between the "Loreto
Human Settlements" (actual quote in the growth article above!) to the five star resort at Ensendaa Blance a few years later.
Yeah Loreto is an incredible beautiful place, but the Loretanos y Loretanas are even more beautiful. Its just that "the beautiful people" won't
notice.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64834
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Online
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Pam is the person you should be listening to on all things 'Loreto' not Loreto Bay propaganda.
Buying homes is an investment for the wealthy, it is not to be their new homes to live in all year. When the market is right or Loreto becomes
uninteresting to them, they will sell.
If the housing market crashes, because of economic trends or no water or other services, then look for Loreto Bay to become a slum or ruin.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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I'm wondering how many business can survive the "improvements" taking place all over town? Hasn't been mentioned. right now there's a 20 foot
diameter hole ten feet from my front door and raw sewage pipes are being opened closed and reopened again. The town is a disaster from the glorieta
to the town center where my shop is. The beautiful people ought to thank us for surviving it before their arrival. 
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64834
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Online
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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There used to be a bumper sticker that read:
'Wecome to California, now GO HOME!'
Loreto could do something like that... Bring money, then go! Okay for tourism, but not okay for residence...
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Jerry,
"What?"
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
Member Is Offline
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Osprey
need glassess
jerry and judi
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: muted
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Relax all who bemoan the transition of Loreto from a nice little baja town to a place para solemente ricos y esclavos. I just realized that in 30
years or so, due to global warming, which is a fact, Loreto Bay will be a scuba diving destination. Those lucky future divers will be able to sit
around a table in a condo and spear fish as they swim by.
It only makes sense that the small semi-enclosed bodies of water like the Sea of Cortez will be the first to experience rising ocean levels.
BTW, the ivory tower folks concluded that salt water intrusion into the aquifers is inevitable and that the only solution is desalination and that
unless a lot of money is spent the waste product of desalination (salt) will really screw things up. Plus, for those of you who don't know,
desalination requires mucho energy ($$ and pollution) to produce the heat required. I guess they could burn diesel fuel. Fantastic. That will
certainly make thinks cleaner and healthier. Solar panels and windmills certainly won't cut it.
The more I think about this the more I realize that these developers are just full of chit. They're obviously out to make a quick buck and then
disappear.
That's it, me and my dogs Smiley and Nacho are hopping into the pickup/camper and going to Loreto. We're going to put a stop to this nonsense. I'll
just hire some local TJ meth addicts to spray paint gang graffeti all over the place. That should kill sales.
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bancoduo
Banned
Posts: 1003
Registered: 10-3-2005
Location: el carcel publico mazatlan sin.
Member Is Offline
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Got any room for me! I have three dogs and spray paint. I'm starting to feel young again.
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Worldtraveller
Junior Nomad
Posts: 65
Registered: 11-26-2004
Member Is Offline
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At the risk of taking this thread off-course, when will the streets be repaved? It's quite a mess: I can almost handle the potholes and
detours, but haven't been able to adapt to breathing so much dust. Is the town fixing the water pipes along with the sewage and roads? Where is
the money coming from for this large project? This construction must be having an impact on some businesses.
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I'm wondering how many business can survive the "improvements" taking place all over town? Hasn't been mentioned. right now there's a 20 foot
diameter hole ten feet from my front door and raw sewage pipes are being opened closed and reopened again. The town is a disaster from the glorieta
to the town center where my shop is. The beautiful people ought to thank us for surviving it before their arrival. |
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64834
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Online
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I am sorry oldhippie, but where did this come from:
"It only makes sense that the small semi-enclosed bodies of water like the Sea of Cortez will be the first to experience rising ocean levels" ???
Sounds like another Algore inconvenient 'truth'!!
The Sea of Cortez' sea level will rise (or fall) the same as the Pacific it is connected to... Gravity and the fluid nature of water makes 'sea level'
uniform.
Just want to keep it real about 'global warming' ... in this record cold year!
Peace!
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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Mood: muted
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David K,
Fair question. I should have said "It only makes sense (to me).........." and it does make sense to me. I have a good feel for the physical world and
science in general, a BS and MS in Physics and 30 years working as a scientist and engineer. But you're correct, I don't have any data to support my
thesis that semi-enclosed, relatively small seas will feel an amplification of the current increase in sea levels.
I'll do some research and report back on what I find.
You're also correct that water seeks its own level, but applying this notion to the oceans is an over-simplification. There's no denying that there is
a lot of "sloshing around" that occurs due to lunar/solar tides and winds (friction at the ocean/atmosphere interface). When water sloshes into the
Sea of Cortez because of one of the several annual hurricanes that spin up off of Mazatlan, will the surge be more devastating because the mean sea
level is higher? I think so. Is the surge higher because a massive amount of water is being pushed into a small area? I think so.
You indicate that you're still a skeptic about global warming by your Al Gore comment. And your skepticism is strengthened by the recent cold winter
months in these northern latitudes. Not much I can say about that except that there is a very strong correlation between winter months and cold
temperatures in temperate latitudes. The global warming time perspective is decades, not months.
But all of this is off-topic. I'll be glad to debate global warming and how it may affect baja with you if you want to start a new thread. It is,
afterall, a very timely and important topic.
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